Andrew Probert and Rick Sternbach: The New Enterprise

[Cary L. Brown]

I understand where you're coming from, but it makes more sense to justify reasoning behind something that has reasoning behind its design, rather than try to justify reasoning for something that had no thought behind it besides 'make it look big.' It might even be admirable that you make the try, but face it, only TIMO can come up with any decent reasons for there to be doors on this dumb thing, and that still isn't good enough, because the doors are there just so there is an obstacle to escape. If the ship parked on the outside, you wouldn't have the 'warningspacedoorsareclosed' bit ...

Okay, then...

Instead of thinking in terms of what we've seen on-screen in Star Trek at all... consider why you might want to build an enclosed volume of that sort in space at all. Think "real life" rather than "Star Trek."

What advantages would an enclosed volume of that sort give you? Would it give you any?

Here are a few I can think of.

1) Protection from micrometeorites and other debris
2) Protection from radiation (both EM and "hard" types)
3) The ability to recover lost toolbelts?
4) Provision of a working atmosphere.

Anything else?

And are there any of those which wouldn't be tremendously useful during construction and/or repair operations?

IGNORE the thought that we're talking "Star Trek" and think reality. If, in 250 years or so, we have something like this really in orbit... what purpose would it serve? Any answer you can come up with which makes logical sense can be tossed out... except "in order to tell a cool story."

 

[trevanian]

Yeah, I can see pros and cons to that in a realworld thing, but I think the big drawback is resources and necessity. Folks will be comfortable in zerogee and be able to swim like dolphins and swing like monkeys, so they wouldn't want a one-gee environ. As for having it pressurized, fine I guess, but you still have to have airlock doors or something like that, and again, that sounds resource based.

But the idea is a good one, I think.

 

[ancient]

I agree, Cary, that big spacedock should be pressurized. It would be something of a waste if it weren't. Aside from eliminating the danger of vaacum when repairing or building a ship, it keeps your ship from getting a meteor through its hull while still just a helpless assembly. And it keeps your unfinished ship out of the sun, which I imagine is a good thing, what with thermal expansion and all.

A pressurized spacedock is the ultimate controlled environment.

Besides, there's nothing to suggest it wasn't pressurized.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Yeah, I can see pros and cons to that in a realworld thing, but I think the big drawback is resources and necessity.

If Trek had to show an enclosed volume for servicing starships then the hangars should have been designed as individual modules attached to the truss of a larger space platform a la Robert McCall's L1 Spaceport for both aesthetic and practical reasons.

Aside from eliminating the danger of vaacum when repairing or building a ship, it keeps your ship from getting a meteor through its hull while still just a helpless assembly.

Presumably the hull would be assembled first and then fitted out from within via the shuttlebay, thus making micrometeoroid impacts as much a concern as they are for operational starships which would be more or less zero.

And it keeps your unfinished ship out of the sun, which I imagine is a good thing, what with thermal expansion and all.

Thermal expansion coefficients for modern aerospace materials - especially if coated with Kapton, Mylar or Betacloth - render thermal distortion at 1 AU distance from the sun a non-issue, and 23rd century materials would be presumably far less susceptible. Even if solar insolation was an issue, then a gossamer sunshield with RCS stationkeeping ability would be a vastly more elegant solution for keeping a starship shaded while in dry dock.

A pressurized spacedock is the ultimate controlled environment.

Only under the most extreme circumstances, and only if it was designed by Andrew Probert or Rick Sternbach.

TGT

 

[Captain Robert April]

It might be better to say that Spacedock is capable of being pressurized, but generally isn't (that's a lot of air).

 

[Cary L. Brown]

It might be better to say that Spacedock is capable of being pressurized, but generally isn't (that's a lot of air).

Yeah, it's a lot of air... but not THAT much. How much do you think would be found throughout the rest of the station?

The only issue with this is that you wouldn't want to treat it as a big airlock. But, in TMP, it was established that the 1701's hangar bay had atmosphere-retention forcefields... you see right from the cargo bay (where Kirk is entering the ship) out through the hangar doors into open space, after all... and Kirk seemed to be breathing perfectly fine, wasn't he?

So, the "spacedock doors" serve the same purpose as the 1701's hangar doors do... and just like with the 1701, there's a forcefield there retaining the atmosphere when the doors are open. And the atmosphere in the big bay is treated no differently than the atmosphere throughout the rest of the station.

 

[Vance]

It might be better to say that Spacedock is capable of being pressurized, but generally isn't (that's a lot of air).

Well, I think you can TGT can agree that it's full of something... but...

Actually, I never had too much of a beef with Spacedock as shown in ST:III. The impression there was that it was a 'new' take on the FJ Starfleet Headquarters, and all there was involved with that, and that it was supposed to be unique in that sense. As a unique 'center of Star Fleet' installation, with all that entails, I found it much easier to accept.

Now, TNG had to go and ruin that with a Spacedock eight times the size put in orbit around a minor Federation world of seemingly no importance...

 

[Maurice]

Gosh, that means the interior of V'ger must've also been pressurized since that, too, was shot with smoke.

Now that I've opened THAT can of worms, I'm gonna sit back and watch y'all engage in more petty bickering.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Gosh, that means the interior of V'ger must've also been pressurized since that, too, was shot with smoke.

Now that I've opened THAT can of worms, I'm gonna sit back and watch y'all engage in more petty bickering.

V'ger didn't just have an atmosphere... it had its own cloud.

V'Ger was full of something... little tiny "data bees" and so forth... enough stuff going on that it's not hard to justify ANYTHING we saw there.

Besides, I'm sure much of that was really the smoke from the guys in the theater getting high and trippin' to the cloud sequence...

 

[Psion]

WTF?

"Enough" if someone doesn't agree with what you think?

Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Phasers down, Mister Brown! I'm not talking about opinion, I'm talking about bloody obvious facts.

Is it just my opinion that you can't see the spotlight beams in the second image? Because if it is, ONE of us has issues.

The model (which was the "Death Star Core" miniature with a redressing) was shot with smoke, and had internal lights which were visible. The smoke was added to give a sense of depth and scale, not SPECIFICALLY INTENDED to imply atmosphere. But it was still there.

I'm not sure it is ... it certainly isn't showing up in any spotlights. And it couldn't the Excelsior model was never placed inside of the Spacedock model. They were shot separately and composited later. The circles of light cast on the ship aren't coming from sources within the Spacedock miniature. The promotional material sported airbrushed beams that associate a pool of light with a source, but that isn't the way it appeared in the film. (See second image).

They may have used smoke for depth in the Spacedock shots, but they certainly didn't use much of it. Any "haziness" in that shot could be a factor of film graininess, optical compositing, or some other post-production tweeking. I certainly don't see anything in the film itself that looks like haze.

Why have this be an interior space with hard-sealing "spacedock doors?" Why have open landing platforms throughout (not behind sealing internal doors?) There are lots of reasons to conclude that there was an atmosphere in there, from the design of the setting to the way it was filmed, to the rational for even having such a space.

It makes sense if it's pressurized. If it's not... why not just have the Enterprise pull up to the OUTSIDE of the structure? Why bring it inside?

Seems to me that they brought it inside to finish the hull repairs they'd done patchwork repair on after the Mutara battle. And that sort of repair would likely be easier to do if you didn't have a pressure differential between the inside and the outside. Among many other advantages you'd have to working in a pressurized environment.

I'm not arguing any of this. I agree completely. It's also irrelevant to my point, which was that the spotlight haze in that scene was added to promotional materials only, not the film.

It's not "settled" because it's not REAL. You have your opinion. I have mine. I think mine makes a hell of a lot more sense than yours does. In my case, there's a REASON for this big enclosed space, besides "because it's cool-looking."

With respect, you seem to have completely missed my point. The resulting conclusion you have about my opinion shares nothing with any opinions I actually hold.

 

[SonicRanger]

^^^

The light beams ARE present in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch5/tvh0152.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1058.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1059.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1065.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1066.jpg

And TFF:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tff/ch3/thefinalfrontier0152.jpg

And TUC:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0092.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0093.jpg

And TNG:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

P.S. Is that Probert's painting in TNG?

 

[Psion]

Yep. It's a good thing I wasn't talking about those movies, or I'd have the equivalent of an ostrich egg all over my face now. Although it sure looks like the same images got reused a lot!

^^^
And TNG:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

P.S. Is that Probert's painting in TNG?

It sure is. The man's amazing!

 

[Kirk1980]

Yeah, well, Star Trek has historically been very into the recycling movement

 

[Cary L. Brown]

"Smug Factor Four - ENGAGE!"

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

^^^

The light beams ARE present in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch5/tvh0152.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1058.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1059.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1065.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1066.jpg

And TFF:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tff/ch3/thefinalfrontier0152.jpg

And TUC:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0092.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0093.jpg

And TNG:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

P.S. Is that Probert's painting in TNG?

 

[ST-One]

"Smug Factor Four - ENGAGE!"

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

^^^

The light beams ARE present in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch5/tvh0152.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1058.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1059.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1065.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1066.jpg

And TFF:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tff/ch3/thefinalfrontier0152.jpg

And TUC:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0092.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0093.jpg

And TNG:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

P.S. Is that Probert's painting in TNG?

So, going by your logic, we can assume that the Spacedock's interior wasn't flooded with air in TSFS then?

 

[Cary L. Brown]

"Smug Factor Four - ENGAGE!"

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

^^^

The light beams ARE present in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch5/tvh0152.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1058.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1059.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1065.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1066.jpg

And TFF:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tff/ch3/thefinalfrontier0152.jpg

And TUC:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0092.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0093.jpg

And TNG:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

P.S. Is that Probert's painting in TNG?

So, going by your logic, we can assume that the Spacedock's interior wasn't flooded with air in TSFS then?

Not interesting in playing "one-up-manship" with you on this. All we can assume based on TSFS is that the beams aren't always visible and always on, or that they can shine at different intensities... or that the atmospheric scrubbers and humidity levels may not always be at the exact same levels.

All we can determine is that in a few shots, there are no clearly visible beams, but in the overwhelming majority of shots, there are.

And we can be very clear that (1) the best rational for having a big enclosed space like that is for what we've discussed (though, feel free to add your own POSITIVE suggestions if you have something to contribute) and (2) light beams of the sort we see here aren't visible unless there's a medium present to scatter the beams.

Please, provide some positive comments, make your own suggestions, etc, etc.

 

[SonicRanger]

So, going by your logic, we can assume that the Spacedock's interior wasn't flooded with air in TSFS then?

Possibly, yeah.

Funny thing is, in TNG, when the Spacedock doors are open and the E-D is entering, there are spotlights on the ship... but no beams of light:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone009.jpg

The light beams only show up later, when the E-D is docked:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

So possibly the docking bay is sometimes at atmosphere and sometimes vented to the vacuum of space. But it can't be just as simple as open space doors meaning the bay is at vacuum because of this shot in TUC:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0093.jpg

So possibly the docking bay can be at atmosphere or at vacuum when the doors are open. That suggests something like the force fields over the Enterprise shuttle bay doors in TMP.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Smug Factor Four - ENGAGE!"

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

^^^

The light beams ARE present in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch5/tvh0152.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1058.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1059.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1065.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch17/tvh1066.jpg

And TFF:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tff/ch3/thefinalfrontier0152.jpg

And TUC:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0092.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch2/tuc0093.jpg

And TNG:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x16/oneone013.jpg

P.S. Is that Probert's painting in TNG?

So, going by your logic, we can assume that the Spacedock's interior wasn't flooded with air in TSFS then?

One might conclude that the more the traffic at space dock, the more smokey the interior. They are, after all, moving around with thrusters and crap in an atmosphere, that's got to leave some exhaust that takes a bit to clear up.

 

[ST-One]

"Smug Factor Four - ENGAGE!"

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

So, going by your logic, we can assume that the Spacedock's interior wasn't flooded with air in TSFS then?

One might conclude that the more the traffic at space dock, the more smokey the interior. They are, after all, moving around with thrusters and crap in an atmosphere, that's got to leave some exhaust that takes a bit to clear up.

Perhaps.

 

[Vance]

I think, guys, that this is one of those cases where you're relying TOO HEAVILY on the VFX shots to establish something as 'canon' or 'true' in the Star Trek universe. We all know that the VFX shots are pretty much the LAST place you want to look for canon details.

So let's use Ockhan's razor here. We see people in protection suits in spacedock. From there, it stands to reason that the dock is NOT pressurized in atmosphere, as it would be a huge waste. It's simply a guarded construction faciltity, unlike the 'open' spacedocks we see in TMP and TWOK.