This just made me think of something, has started trek ever had an alien species with legit noticeable horns as long as the "antenae" in that picture? They're actually more reminiscent of horns to me, but admittedly I'm just being overly hopeful for something unique and different. Not that there's anything wrong with Andorrans!!
Andorians confirmed?
- Thread starter Shalashaska
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*star trek. Oi, this thread seems to be cursed for that error lol
If they do include an Andorian I hope they make the four sexes canon
Oh, damn. I hope not. That was easily the stupidest thing to be done in the expanded universe. The writers even recognized how outlandish it was and how much of a genetic bottleneck it would really be and used that as a plot point. Gee, whiz. A genetic defect to the entire species for its entire history is solved by one Starfleet ensign in an afternoon. Yeah, it's no more outlandish a solution than many aired episodes, but it still utterly destroys any suspension of disbelief.
There's nothing to say that four sexes would cause the Andorians to slowly die out, but if that was something to be explored then have it be due to some change in environmental factors (or something similar), and have it that there is no solution, making them a proud species facing their own end. How would any race react to the knowledge that all their history, culture and accomplishments will not continue? How would people react knowing that the lives of the descendants will come to an end, due to a problem they've created?
It would have some interesting parallels with the immense damage we are causing to our own planet and the dangers that presents. Plus having aliens with non-binary sexes makes them more alien and interesting, if you ask me.
It does. Understandably we creatively base things on our knowledge and perception of how things work, so we've always had the dual genders in every iteration of every alien (even the one gendered species in that TNG episode were historically male/female). It makes sense in a lot of ways to go beyond our knowledge and try and showcase something radically different from the 'norm'.
I'm not sure how having four sexes of Andorians would make them die out though. If that was made a canonical thing and there are four sexes, and there always were four sexes, surely it'd be sustainable otherwise they'd have died out long before they got into space :/
I'm not sure how having four sexes of Andorians would make them die out though. If that was made a canonical thing and there are four sexes, and there always were four sexes, surely it'd be sustainable otherwise they'd have died out long before they got into space :/
Just to be clear, I have zero problem with aliens that work differently than us, that are non-binary, reproduce asexually, lay eggs, etc, the more the merrier. In fact, I love Titan because it finally gives us more non-humans and non-bipeds. My issue with the four-gendered Andorians thing is that it's extrapolated from a throwaway line about marriage ceremonies (not gender, not reproduction), badly handled in the books, and the notion of needing four individuals to come together (heh) to produce a single offspring is biologically stupid.
Such a species wouldn't likely evolve in nature in the first place, to say nothing of how long it would survive if it had.
Which would only matter if the species were limited to one planet. Any species worth the moniker "intelligent" with the capability to move beyond living solely on a single planet would, if for no other reason than to help ensure its survival. (Which is why it's ridiculous to have the Vulcan homeworld destroyed in the reboots and have Spock say that he's now a member of an endangered species. And no, Spock wasn't being poetic or being hyperbolic.)
Sure. I'm 100% for that kind of story. But not done is a stupid way (which the four-gendered Andorians thing really is), or to a founding member of the Federation. Besides, we have all of ENT without confirmation of this theory. So far it's EU only, thankfully, with any amount of intelligence on the part of the new series writers, it will remain EU only.
Such a species wouldn't likely evolve in nature in the first place, to say nothing of how long it would survive if it had.
Which would only matter if the species were limited to one planet. Any species worth the moniker "intelligent" with the capability to move beyond living solely on a single planet would, if for no other reason than to help ensure its survival. (Which is why it's ridiculous to have the Vulcan homeworld destroyed in the reboots and have Spock say that he's now a member of an endangered species. And no, Spock wasn't being poetic or being hyperbolic.)
Sure. I'm 100% for that kind of story. But not done is a stupid way (which the four-gendered Andorians thing really is), or to a founding member of the Federation. Besides, we have all of ENT without confirmation of this theory. So far it's EU only, thankfully, with any amount of intelligence on the part of the new series writers, it will remain EU only.
Didn't the Denobulans have several sexes? I recall a few (cringeworthy) snippets from Phlox to such effect.
I agree that it seems silly; because humans have only 2 "primary" sexes (not speaking to gender identity) and it makes it harder to relate, but if it can be used to explore human issues of sex and gender without getting political, why not?
I agree that it seems silly; because humans have only 2 "primary" sexes (not speaking to gender identity) and it makes it harder to relate, but if it can be used to explore human issues of sex and gender without getting political, why not?
Variety is good. Even ham-fisted plausibility is better. Such a species wouldn't likely evolve in the first place, to say nothing of surviving long enough to reach "civilization", to say nothing of appearing on the Kardashev scale, leaving its own planet, much less colonizing other worlds.
It's similar to the Klingon scientist problem, only instead of it being a question of Klingon society somehow producing scientists, it's a question of a four-gendered species actually evolving in the first place and being able to reproduce sufficiently. Nature and evolution are lazy. If I can anthropomorphize a bit. Like water finding the path of least resistance. There's dozens or hundreds of other methods of reproduction that are simpler, easier, and involve less chance and work than four genders. Note this isn't about non-binary genders and identity or any of that, rather an actual biological requirement of four members of a species to create one new one. In our knowledge of life on Earth, limited though it is, that's basically unknown.
Just take a second and think about it. In humans, we have roughly a 1:1 ratio of births between the two dominant genders (male female). But you need one each of the dominant genders to breed one child. So to replace each parent, you need two children (hopefully one of each gender) to survive to sexual maturity and successfully breed, which is why until recently women had so many kids, because many of them would die before reaching either of those markers. Or the mothers themselves would die in childbirth. But this scheme is basically doubling that, doubling the risks, and doubling that chances of failure. Instead of 2 parents with complimentary genders, personalities, and fully functioning bits, you need 4. Instead of two children living to sexual maturity and successfully breeding, you need 4, and you'd better hope you're pumping out all four genders or some other family is over producing what you're not. Any significant dip in the ratio of births would result in something like the ENT episode Cogenitor. Which is a great follow through with the notion of multiple biological genders, and a great allegory for the notion of gender roles in America up till the late '50s.
Yeah, I know. It's just a show. A cheesy, silly one at that. But one of the things I love about SF is reading and watching creative types honestly work through the what ifs. Assume something is different then working logically through the consequences of that difference. The four-gendered Andorians fails miserably at the "working logically through the consequences" phase.
I'm all for exploring human issues of sex and gender. I'm even fine with it getting political. But it's still got to make some basic sense on a biological level. As above, even a ham-fisted attempt at logically following through with the consequences is a basic requirement for me.
I'm not sure why a 4 reproductive partner species is so outlandish. We have a 4 partner scenario right here on Earth - it takes a bee to carry the pollen from the male organ of one plant to the female of another, but still also takes another bee partner to make more bees to keep the whole thing going. Seems a short trip to imagine a scenario where this sort of symbiosis happened earlier in the evolutionary chain (like, say, when their equivalent of mitochondria intermingled into their cells) and resulted in what looks like a four-gendered reproductive scenario for an entire evolutionary chain. (Because it wouldn't just be Andorians, but ALL of their fauna and maybe their flora, too.)
And as to it being ridiculous that a Starfleet ensign cured their problems, well, *someone* was going to do it - and we know from real history that it isn't always some world-renowned scientists already at the top of their field. Often, it's some lowly patent clerk (Einstein) or some student with a science fair project (Olivia Hallisley) that makes an amazing discovery and *then* people hear about them. For all we know, Ensign Thirishar ch'Thane may end up being as well known to Andorians as Jonas Salk is to us.
And as to it being ridiculous that a Starfleet ensign cured their problems, well, *someone* was going to do it - and we know from real history that it isn't always some world-renowned scientists already at the top of their field. Often, it's some lowly patent clerk (Einstein) or some student with a science fair project (Olivia Hallisley) that makes an amazing discovery and *then* people hear about them. For all we know, Ensign Thirishar ch'Thane may end up being as well known to Andorians as Jonas Salk is to us.
I do not care if they ditch the 4 sexes idea or not. I would like to see them keep a non monogamous marriage. It would be nice to explore that.
As long as it is in humans I'm all for it. And by humans I mean one of the main human crew members.
I would be cool with it being Andorians as it does fit with what we have seen. But yeah, I would like to explore some concepts from humanity as well.
I know this is drifting further and further off topic, so this is hopefully the last post on the topic.
I'm all for outlandish and variety, but really? Now we're on to animals porking plants to reproduce? Besides, that's not how bees reproduce. The queen lays eggs. Fertilized eggs hatch into female workers, unfertilized eggs hatch into drones, or honey bee males. The queen has one mating flight wherein she gathers millions of sperm (from male bees), enough to lay eggs for most of her life. Plants only come in when you're talking about food production, kind of like how we work. It's still a two-gender reproductive cycle.
It's the timing that's ridiculous. For this four-gendered species to even exist in the first place, much less to evolve sufficiently to reach something akin to "civilization," this problem would have already need to be solved. It's a genetic bottle neck that's riddled with points of failure. They wouldn't have been able to advance enough to be a member of the Federation without this thing already being resolved. So yeah, someone would have to solve it. But it would have been solved a few thousand years back if the species was to survive long enough to invent warp, much less join the Federation.
I'm all for outlandish and variety, but really? Now we're on to animals porking plants to reproduce? Besides, that's not how bees reproduce. The queen lays eggs. Fertilized eggs hatch into female workers, unfertilized eggs hatch into drones, or honey bee males. The queen has one mating flight wherein she gathers millions of sperm (from male bees), enough to lay eggs for most of her life. Plants only come in when you're talking about food production, kind of like how we work. It's still a two-gender reproductive cycle.
It's the timing that's ridiculous. For this four-gendered species to even exist in the first place, much less to evolve sufficiently to reach something akin to "civilization," this problem would have already need to be solved. It's a genetic bottle neck that's riddled with points of failure. They wouldn't have been able to advance enough to be a member of the Federation without this thing already being resolved. So yeah, someone would have to solve it. But it would have been solved a few thousand years back if the species was to survive long enough to invent warp, much less join the Federation.
Life finds a way. 
Life finds a way.
And see, that would be cool. Taking your reference and running with it...
A species that's male when it needs to be and female when it needs to be, and neutral all the rest of the time would be interesting. Or half its lifecycle is male, the other half female. It would be a great SF analogy way to talk about trans issues. Like they sort of did with Dax back in DS9.
I don't recall that, but they are supposed to have sprawling marriages. Each of Phlox's wives have several husbands of their own. One of the Rise of the Federation books managed to turn the concept, and other Phlox oddities, into a fully fleshed, cohesive, and compelling society. I never liked Phlox or his species, but after reading the concept for his people in the book I really wanted that concept brought forward as canon.
I think frogs do that kind of thing, sans neuter mode. If there are no females, at least one male will become female, and vice versa.
I believe there is a species in TNG which emerges from pools fully formed, so they have no concept of sex.
I would just point out that four genders doesn't have to mean four biological sexes, and even the latter doesn't have to mean all four are required to mate at once to produce any sort of offspring.
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