And Star Trek V failed because...

[Greg Cox]

Don't give roger too much credit. He essentially just played "the saint " instead of bond. And,besides, England had already developed a habit of replacing the lead insuch shows as Dr who.

I'm not sure that's a specifically British thing. Hollywood movies had been doing that for decades-with Tarzan, Dracula, Charlie Chan, The Saint, and so on. Modern viewers tend to think of recasting as a big deal, but let's not forget that the Frankenstein Monster was played by, successively, Boris Karloff, Lon Chaney Jr., Bela Lugosi, and Glenn Strange in one sequel after another.

And then, of course, there's the two Darren Stevens on Bewitched, or the two Lois Lanes on the old Superman tv show.

(Heck, speaking of Tarzan, "Jane" was played by at least two different actresses in the old black-and-white movies.)

The more things change . . ..

 

[eyeresist]

While Chris Pine hasn't equalled or replaced Shatner as Kirk in most people's minds, I think it's generally agreed that Quinto makes a great Spock.

I think Quinto makes a passable replacement for Spock, which is different from saying he makes a great Spock. Nimoy had a way of sounding logical and calm, but still with a touch of humanity in his voice and actions. Quinto just sounds like a monotone robot to me, except when he's screaming and getting in fistfights.

I agree that Nimoy's voicework was terrific, especially in the movies (that gravelly bass sounds great in a cinema). Quinto doesn't have that classical, musical vocal quality which is capable of such subtle expression, but he makes up at least in part with physical acting. Nimoy was so simple and stylised it was almost kabuki (pivot slightly, tilt head, raise eyebrow), but with Quinto you get to see the character's thoughts on his face. I appreciate both interpretations of the character.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

but let's not forget that the Frankenstein Monster was played by, successively, Boris Karloff, Lon Chaney Jr., Bela Lugosi, and Glenn Strange in one sequel after another.

...and i've observed press from the time which mocked the crap out of Chaney Jr., and Bela for their noted "un-Karloff" performances in Ghost of Frankenstein & Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, respectively. They were never seen or accepted as being the defining, class act that was Karloff (even compared to his weakest / final outing in Son of Frankenstein).

And then, of course, there's the two Darren Stevens on Bewitched

I recall fans and TV articles from 1969 resenting Dick Sargent as the Darrin replacement, never winning many over during his run.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And then, of course, there's the two Darren Stevens on Bewitched

I recall fans and TV articles from 1969 resenting Dick Sargent as the Darrin replacement, never winning many over during his run.

Which was and remains a totally misplaced sentiment, given the reasons that York had to leave the show. He was physically unable to continue performing.

 

[eyeresist]

but let's not forget that the Frankenstein Monster was played by, successively, Boris Karloff, Lon Chaney Jr., Bela Lugosi, and Glenn Strange in one sequel after another.

...and i've observed press from the time which mocked the crap out of Chaney Jr., and Bela for their noted "un-Karloff" performances in Ghost of Frankenstein & Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, respectively. They were never seen or accepted as being the defining, class act that was Karloff (even compared to his weakest / final outing in Son of Frankenstein).

Glenn Strange got a lot of respect from Famous Monsters of Filmland, and masks tended to be modelled on him rather than Karloff.

And of course multiple actors have played the same parts on the stage.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Glenn Strange got a lot of respect from Famous Monsters of Filmland, and masks tended to be modelled on him rather than Karloff.

Famous Monsters hyped just about anyone with garish make-up on their face; it was the People magazine for the fantasy set. Since Universal horror movies were their bread & butter (more than any other studio's output), it is no surprise Ackerman & company praised Glenn Strange--though his performances as the Monster were little more than walking slowly with his arms extended.

And of course multiple actors have played the same parts on the stage.

But who possesses the definitive look and performance of the Monster in filmed media? Karloff. Not Lugosi, Barrymore, Lee, Sarrazin, Chaney, Jr., DeNiro, Svenson, or anyone else. All are inevitably compared to Karloff, as he is seen as the

 

[FormerLurker]

Someone has to say it:

Drop the shoe, man. Seen as the - What?

 

[urbandefault]

No one could ever top Karloff as the monster. Even if you just take the one scene at the lake with the little girl, I can't imagine anyone doing it better. Ever.

 

[spockfan101]

I simply love the movie I don't think its bad at all.

 

[2takesfrakes]

This tender valentine to the character Captain James T. Kirk failed because in it, the Federation faces the greatest threat to its existence: William Shatner's rampaging ego.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

This tender valentine to the character Captain James T. Kirk failed because in it, the Federation faces the greatest threat to its existence: William Shatner's rampaging ego.

When you first saw TFF if you were someone who has a good understanding of what William Shatner was like in real life (not to mention a basic understanding of rock climbing) you should have gone "Uh Oh" and realized this film was in deep trouble when he was shown free climbing El Cap.

I didn't really know Shatner's personality that well when I saw TFF the first time so the sheer magnitude of self glorification of the scene wasn't readily apparent to me. Though I did think the scene and the fall were hokey.

Now that I'm older and maybe wiser (and know a little more about rock climbing) It's clear Shatner's first and only thought in filming that scene was "What can I do to establish the fact I'm the bravest, strongest and most awesome person who ever lived."

He might as well gone ahead and had the opening scene of Kirk winning the 100m dash at the Olympics in world record time and getting the call from starfleet while he was on the podium getting his gold medal......that's how impossible and ridiculous the El Cap climb was.

 

[Captrek]

FWIW, Spock did note that the record was "in no danger."

 

[2takesfrakes]

BUT..............................for Kirk, climbing mountains with his bare, pudgy hands, whilst wearing a Court Jester outfit, to make sure he gets attention for it, is just "relaxing." It still amuses me to no end, how when we see "Kirk" climbing during the credits from a distance, that when Shatner finally inserts himself into the shot, "Kirk" has suddenly, abruptly and inexplicably gained somewhere around 50+ pounds! And, of course, what would Spock rather do with his vacation than worship his hero & captain, by climbing the heights with him ... but ... he has to cheat with magical boot technology to do it. Because, like his loser brother, Spock's Vulcan.

 

[urbandefault]

Lots of Shatner hate here. Just sayin'.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

FWIW, Spock did note that the record was "in no danger."

True. But that would be like if I played in the NBA for 10 seasons and averaged 15 points a game. Spock could come up to me and say that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's was in no danger of being broken, and he would be correct.

But the mere fact that I played that long and averaged that number of points would put me in the top point I don't know how many zeros % of best basketball players on the planet.

The mere fact Kirk was even free climbing El Cap, and looked like he was at least halfway up would put him an extremely elite group of rock climbers. It's just something that only a handful of the strongest, most experienced and best trained rock climbers would even attempt.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Lots of Shatner hate here. Just sayin'.

Hey I've defended Shatner in here on a number of occasions saying I think people ride his jock too much and sometimes he gets flack for things that aren't fair or untrue and I think he's a decent person in real life.

But sometimes you gotta call like it is and TFF was a self directed tribute to himself and his/Kirk's perceived greatness.

The rock climbing scene kicked it off in a ridiculous and impossible scenario.....and it only got worse.

People argue with me on this point, but once Sybok takes control of the Enterprise, Kirk literally becomes the only person on board who doesn't become weak and/or stupid at some point.

Spock is weak and/or stupid because, even though he can't kill his brother when Kirk orders him to, he doesn't pop one or two shots in his legs or shoulder or at least punch him in the face to try end the attempt. Instead he just stands there passively and lets Sybok disarm him.

Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov are all to weak to resist Sybok's pain healing thing and basically follow him willingly. McCoy falls for it too and only resists it because he is guilted into not leaving Kirk and Spock, but you can tell he really wants to go. Sybok never tries it on Scotty, but then he turns into a clumsy oaf who knocks himself by hitting his head on a ceiling beam.

Worst of all Sybok makes an address over the ship's PA system to the brave crew, most of who are just walking around the ship unguarded, announcing the historic task they're about to undertake and not a SINGLE crewmember goes "Hey...that's not the captain" something's not right....I'd better round up some security guys and get to the bridge and see what's up. They all just shrug their shoulders and are like "OK whoever you are talking to us....thanks for your inspirational message for this mission we're going on that we have no idea what it is about"

Like I said I've defended Shatner for many things he gets slammed on, but when you make a film where you come off as literally the only completely rational, totally intelligent and strong willed person on the whole ship.....Sorry the line must be drawn here.

 

[eyeresist]

I think people are magnifying some rather trivial points. TFF opens with Kirk climbing a mountain because he's Captain frigging Kirk, and it sets him up as the (fallible) action man before he's brought low by Sybok. Most people at the time didn't know (or care) about the name of the mountain or statistics for successful climbs, and most people still don't, because it's not important.

Also - do I need to point this out? Kirk does not successfully climb El Capitan - he gets partway up and then falls off.

I personally find Shatner much more annoying in TVH, where he is super-smarmy. At least in TFF he's being serious.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I think people are magnifying some rather trivial points. TFF opens with Kirk climbing a mountain because he's Captain frigging Kirk, and it sets him up as the (fallible) action man before he's brought low by Sybok. Most people at the time didn't know (or care) about the name of the mountain or statistics for successful climbs, and most people still don't, because it's not important.

Also - do I need to point this out? Kirk does not successfully climb El Capitan - he gets partway up and then falls off.

I personally find Shatner much more annoying in TVH, where he is super-smarmy. At least in TFF he's being serious.

I understand the "Because he's Captain Freaking Kirk" response to things he does that are very unlikely. I use that line all the time when watching James Bond films with my wife and Bond does something incredible or almost impossible and she says how could he do that....the answer is always "Because he's James Bond".

But there comes a point where it goes beyond the pale. It was really hard to believe Roger Moore in "A View to a Kill" could do all the stuff he did because he just looked too damn old.

Same with Kirk....When you're a 55 year old fat guy and you're doing something most 20 year old experts can't do.....it's a little hard to swallow. Especially when you know the guy directing the film is the same guy who is trying to look like some ageless powerhouse who can do anything.

I'm not saying they should have had him playing golf in the opening shot....but there were other things he could have been doing that were adventerous/dangerous that would have been a little believeable and not totally impossible.

 

[Khan 2.0]

its funny trying to picture TWOK Kirk hanging off the side of that mountain..

I think of TFF (& GEN) Kirk as Captain William Shatner - the all action man running and jumping and climbing and riding his way throughout the universe. and for the other movies hes the mature James Kirk

 

[2takesfrakes]

I'm not saying they should have had him playing golf in the opening shot....but there were other things he could have been doing that were adventerous/dangerous that would have been a little believeable and not totally impossible.

Kirk could've been skydiving somewhere in the same region and had his parachute fail to open. Then Spock and his Magical Footwear could've saved the day and the rest of the camping scenes could've remained almost unchanged, except for the mountain dialogue. Skydiving is something that a Senior Citizen could engage in, convincingly.

What really kind of gets me about what Shatner did here with his directorial début is that this is what STAR TREK really is about to him. Kirk is the franchise's only focus and everyone else in it is around to merely look up to and admire him. And in the original version of Shatner's story, Kirk is so bad-assed, even in these, his Golden Years, that he can tangle with the literal, real-life Lucifer ... and win! Neither STAR TREK or movies resemble reality and as an entertainer, Shatner seems to be more interested in that aspect of it, than in wasting time concerning himself with anything like believability impeding his "artistic" creativity.