And Star Trek V failed because...

[Nebusj]

But since you mentioned it. Yes it is absurd as anything in ST because it is Impossible that a guy of shatners age and physical could free climb el cap that far. Saying he was doing a little recreational rock climbing is like saying the Tour de France is a little light bicycle ride.

Impossible. Really. Your proposition is that it is impossible that James T Kirk, who at the time of The Final Frontier would be around fifty years of age, could be able to free-climb El Capitan.

I do not know where to find rosters of known free-climbers, but I was able to find that Tommy Caldwell (along with one Kevin Jorgeson) free-climbed this very mountain last month; Caldwell is 36 years old. Do you wish to assert that it is absolutely, completely, ridiculously impossible to suppose that the maximum age at which this feat can be done will not rise by fourteen years over the coming three centuries of improvements in health, fitness, and climbing technique and practice?

Before you answer, I do wish to point out that the oldest age of any person to have successfully climbed Mount Everest rose from 60 years old in 1993 to 80 years by 2013. (Not the same person.) And that physically demanding task has now been done by a person --- Yuichiro Miura --- whose age is pretty near the expected lifespan for people from Japan; Kirk would be slightly below middle-aged.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

But since you mentioned it. Yes it is absurd as anything in ST because it is Impossible that a guy of shatners age and physical could free climb el cap that far. Saying he was doing a little recreational rock climbing is like saying the Tour de France is a little light bicycle ride.

Impossible. Really. Your proposition is that it is impossible that James T Kirk, who at the time of The Final Frontier would be around fifty years of age, could be able to free-climb El Capitan.

I do not know where to find rosters of known free-climbers, but I was able to find that Tommy Caldwell (along with one Kevin Jorgeson) free-climbed this very mountain last month; Caldwell is 36 years old. Do you wish to assert that it is absolutely, completely, ridiculously impossible to suppose that the maximum age at which this feat can be done will not rise by fourteen years over the coming three centuries of improvements in health, fitness, and climbing technique and practice?

Before you answer, I do wish to point out that the oldest age of any person to have successfully climbed Mount Everest rose from 60 years old in 1993 to 80 years by 2013. (Not the same person.) And that physically demanding task has now been done by a person --- Yuichiro Miura --- whose age is pretty near the expected lifespan for people from Japan; Kirk would be slightly below middle-aged.

I will state categorically it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone of William Shatner's age, weight and physical condition to free climb El Cap. Never mind the fact he never seemed to never be a serious mountain climber ever before in there series.

Free Soloing is something that only a handful of the most experienced and fearless rock climbers. Even many seasoned professionals with tons of experience using ropes who climb dangerous routes and sleep in hanging beds on rock faces thousands of feet at night think free soloing is nuts.

So some 36 year olds did it....Shatner was almost 20 years older and I guarantee the guys who did it are in great physical shape and have hundreds of free climbs under their belt.

Even veteran mountain climbers will tell you climbing Mt. Everest is not that technically difficult. That's why tour companies offer to guide people who have never climbed in their lives to the top. I have yet to see a company say they can take any ordinary guy to the top of El Cap. For Mt. Everest you do not have to have the strength, flexibility and technical knowledge that you do to free climb El Cap. All you have to do is be in physically good shape, have good respiratory capacity and the ability to push yourself through tiring and cold conditions walk up steep grades and do a little climbing. It's still dangerous as hell and many die each year, but many ordinary people also summit every year and many of theme are middle aged or older. 80 is impressive, but not impossible given the fitness of the individual.

As far as I am aware NO person with little or no rock climbing experience has free soloed el cap. You are talking about a steep climb up a mountain with some technical challenges and cold and thin air versus being able to physically pull yourself 3000 foot face of sheer rock often using nothing but your fingertips and toes to hold on and if you make even the slightest mistake it's all over.

You want to debate the scene's merit in the film, fine. But don't say "Well how do you know it's impossible in 300 years for a fat, out of shape 55 year old to solo el cap." Some things don't have to be proven they can't be done to know it's impossible. I've never known a single person who has flapped their bare arms and flown before and I am certain there will never be one and I don't need to wait until the last human dies out and it was never done to know it's impossible.

It actually would have been far more believable for him to climb Mt. Everest instead. As far as physical challenges go William Shatner there are very few Shatner could have picked that are more unrealistic.

You want to argue it's place in the film and if was good or bad....fine. Don't tell me though "Oh how do you know it's impossible" My moderate knowledge and experience of rock climbing and common sense tells me it is. Unless he was on some futuristic super steroid, it isn't happening for Captain Kirk in TFF. Period. End of Story.

 

[Galileo7]

Star Trek V:TFF failed first because of the story/script and a very distant second because of the special effects limits.

 

[Nebusj]

I will state categorically it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone of William Shatner's age, weight and physical condition to free climb El Cap. Never mind the fact he never seemed to never be a serious mountain climber ever before in there series.

The matter is Kirk. Not Shatner. Kirk. Are you familiar with the distinction between them? One is (as of The Final Frontier) a fifty-year-old man --- early middle-age --- who's spent his life in the Star Fleet, and been a starship captain, an extremely elite group of people of notable physical and mental fitness. Kirk. Please remember that.

So some 36 year olds did it....Shatner was almost 20 years older and I guarantee the guys who did it are in great physical shape and have hundreds of free climbs under their belt.

So let me ask you this: do you think it possible that, say, a forty-year-old will ever free-climb El Capitan? How about a forty-two-year-old? Forty-four?

What is the oldest age of a person you think will ever climb El Capitan, not just in our lifetimes, but in the whole 21st century? By the end of the 22nd century? By the end of the 29th century? Will it just top out at 47 years, no matter how health and lifespan of humans improve and no matter how much better climbing technique and training and practice gets?

Even veteran mountain climbers will tell you climbing Mt. Everest is not that technically difficult. That's why tour companies offer to guide people who have never climbed in their lives to the top. I have yet to see a company say they can take any ordinary guy to the top of El Cap.

And yet, you know, forty years ago, if you wanted to climb Mount Everest you had to do a bit more than hook up with the tour company. Eighty years ago there wasn't anything you could do to climb the mountain successfully. It's almost as though some factor was making it possible for greater numbers of people to do things more easily, or as if some improvements in ... something ... made available to more people the chance to do a physically challenging thing.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I will state categorically it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone of William Shatner's age, weight and physical condition to free climb El Cap. Never mind the fact he never seemed to never be a serious mountain climber ever before in there series.

The matter is Kirk. Not Shatner. Kirk. Are you familiar with the distinction between them? One is (as of The Final Frontier) a fifty-year-old man --- early middle-age --- who's spent his life in the Star Fleet, and been a starship captain, an extremely elite group of people of notable physical and mental fitness. Kirk. Please remember that.

So some 36 year olds did it....Shatner was almost 20 years older and I guarantee the guys who did it are in great physical shape and have hundreds of free climbs under their belt.

So let me ask you this: do you think it possible that, say, a forty-year-old will ever free-climb El Capitan? How about a forty-two-year-old? Forty-four?

What is the oldest age of a person you think will ever climb El Capitan, not just in our lifetimes, but in the whole 21st century? By the end of the 22nd century? By the end of the 29th century? Will it just top out at 47 years, no matter how health and lifespan of humans improve and no matter how much better climbing technique and training and practice gets?

Even veteran mountain climbers will tell you climbing Mt. Everest is not that technically difficult. That's why tour companies offer to guide people who have never climbed in their lives to the top. I have yet to see a company say they can take any ordinary guy to the top of El Cap.

And yet, you know, forty years ago, if you wanted to climb Mount Everest you had to do a bit more than hook up with the tour company. Eighty years ago there wasn't anything you could do to climb the mountain successfully. It's almost as though some factor was making it possible for greater numbers of people to do things more easily, or as if some improvements in ... something ... made available to more people the chance to do a physically challenging thing.

Tell you what. The day a mid 50's overweight and generally out of shape man who is not what basically amounts to a professional rock climber free solos El Cap, give me a call and I say what a dunce I was until I pass out from exhaustion.

In the meantime, since it has never been done and, according to your information at least, the oldest guys to do it are 20 whole years younger and I'm sure way more fit and experienced, I'll stand by my statement.

Sure the age may creep up a little, but it ain't hitting a fat 55. Since the 4 minute mile was broken the record has been lowered bit by bit to where 4 minutes is slow in top level competition.....But I feel pretty comfortable in saying mankind is not going to evolve enough to where someday eons from now we're going to be knocking out 90 second miles, at least naturally. Evolution does has it's limits.

It's a ridiculous premise and the preponderance of evidence lies with me that it can't be done, since none like Kirk was has even come close. All you have is some flimsy theory that, based on a totally different kind of climbing and mankind evolving so much in 300 years that "Oh sure...it'll be the norm by then."

In fact I can say with almost certainty that it has never even been TRIED. How do I know this? Because once you start to free solo El Cap, you very quickly hit a point of no return where it's either you summit or die. Not even the best climbers in the world can climb down from 1000 feet if they get tired or hit trouble.

Feel free to reply if you like, but I stand by my statement it's impossible and if by some off chance I am wrong and it does happen you and I are going to have been in the dirt a LONG time.

Like I said my evidence is pretty strong and I'm through trying to convince you of it.

And P.S. Everest was conquered in part due to technological advancements like stronger ropes, bottled oxygen, better protective gear and so on. And thad advancement has continued to this day. The people who climb it today are equipped like astronauts compared to Hillary and Norgay. Also people who climb Everest do not just go from base camp to the top in one shot. It's a months long process of going up and down in steps to acclimate your body to the altitude, so they have a long time to practice before the actual summit shot.

There are no "Technological advancements" to help you in free soloing, unless you count PED's. It's you and the rock and that's it. There is also no "practice" climbing on it where you go up a little and back down and do it in steps. Once you start, you're committed very quickly and there's no going back.

 

[2takesfrakes]

STAR TREK V should've capped off the Original Series movies and who knows, probably would have, if not for the upcoming 25th Anniversary of the franchise, by this point. As to what kind of a send-off this would've been, had this coincidence not occured, one can only speculate. But I do find it amusing that William Shatner not only refused to accept the lackluster response to his movie, but that he actually expressed an enthusiastic interest in directing more STAR TREK feature pictures. The irony there is that even though The Final Frontier may seem like it's giving fans The Finger, The Shat was, in his own way, trying to give audiences The Vulcan Salute. If there is any $aving grace in this picture, that's the one.

 

[Nebusj]

Tell you what. The day a mid 50's overweight and generally out of shape man who is not what basically amounts to a professional rock climber free solos El Cap, give me a call and I say what a dunce I was until I pass out from exhaustion.

In the meantime, since it has never been done and, according to your information at least, the oldest guys to do it are 20 whole years younger and I'm sure way more fit and experienced, I'll stand by my statement.

50, by the way. Kirk --- remember, Kirk, not Shatner --- was about 35 by the time of the Original Series (ref: 'The Deadly Years'), and the events of Treks II through V were about fifteen years after the original series (ref: 'The Wrath of Khan'). I don't understand your insistence on making Kirk, Kirk, not Shatner, older than he needs to be.

I also note, with some delight, that last year an 83-year-old man free-climbed Devil's Tower, which suggests to me that it is just remotely possible. And while he had been a rock climber in his youth, before giving up the hobby for decades, he was accompanied by his 67-year-old wife, who just took up the hobby (though she only participated in an easier climb).

I submit that the evidence of an 83-year-old man and his 67-year-old wife managing free climbs indicates that it is not perfectly absurd that a man at the start of middle age could be a free-climber.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Tell you what. The day a mid 50's overweight and generally out of shape man who is not what basically amounts to a professional rock climber free solos El Cap, give me a call and I say what a dunce I was until I pass out from exhaustion.

In the meantime, since it has never been done and, according to your information at least, the oldest guys to do it are 20 whole years younger and I'm sure way more fit and experienced, I'll stand by my statement.

50, by the way. Kirk --- remember, Kirk, not Shatner --- was about 35 by the time of the Original Series (ref: 'The Deadly Years'), and the events of Treks II through V were about fifteen years after the original series (ref: 'The Wrath of Khan'). I don't understand your insistence on making Kirk, Kirk, not Shatner, older than he needs to be.

I also note, with some delight, that last year an 83-year-old man free-climbed Devil's Tower, which suggests to me that it is just remotely possible. And while he had been a rock climber in his youth, before giving up the hobby for decades, he was accompanied by his 67-year-old wife, who just took up the hobby (though she only participated in an easier climb).

I submit that the evidence of an 83-year-old man and his 67-year-old wife managing free climbs indicates that it is not perfectly absurd that a man at the start of middle age could be a free-climber.

Devil's tower is cake compared to El Cap, there are many large and easily accessable holds available along the routes. It is not a sheer cliff face where at point cracks inches across are your only next step. I haven't done either and it's impressive an 83 year old did it. But that's like saying an 83 year old swam the English Channel, so a 55 year old swimming across the Atlantic Ocean non stop is a realistic possibility.

And you want to seperate Kirk from Shatner...I would give you that if Shatner hadn't directed the damn thing...but he did and Shatner was saying that Kirk, and by extension himself, is so touch and macho he can do this.

Like I said I don't believe a 50 year old has even attempted to free solo El Cap because if he did we'd hear about how he made it or was killed in the attempt.....There is no climbing down if you tire halfway through.

And even if you say "Well he's Kirk"...the fact remains Kirk is fat and not in peak athletic shape even for a 50 year old and there is absolutely no denying that when you see him on film in TFF.

Maybe there's a one in a million shot a super fit and experienced 50 year pulls off a free solo someday, but not someone in Kirk's condition. I don't think a 25 year old as heavy as Kirk could do it.

Free soloing depends so much on your strength to weight ratio and for something like El Cap it had better be off the charts. Why do think little kids often blast up those fake rock walls so quickly when grown men often struggle to get to the top. Because little kids usually weight nothing and have great muscle strength for their size.

As we age we get weaker physically and many of get heavier. It's basic human anatomy and you don't need to be a genius to realize that overweight person past his strength prime isn't going to be able to do most 25 year old rock climbers in great shape won't even try.

 

[eyeresist]

Dare I say that "It's only a movie"?

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Dare I say that "It's only a movie"?

Sure you can. But that statement could ultimately apply to nearly every thread on the board. People come here to share discuss and debate things that only happened in fiction. That's kind of the point of a message board like this. If your feeling about most of it is....jeez it's only a movie or show, then youre kind of wasting your time on here.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Medved also thinks the movie "Happy Feet" pushes a pro-gay message. Literally no one in the world should take anything this nut says seriously.

Medved beat up the graphic novel Captain America: Red, White & Blue because the Captain questioned the Iraq War and why 9/11 happened, as well (although I'll be he loves American Sniper to bits.)

 

[Mudd]

50, by the way. Kirk --- remember, Kirk, not Shatner --- was about 35 by the time of the Original Series (ref: 'The Deadly Years'), and the events of Treks II through V were about fifteen years after the original series (ref: 'The Wrath of Khan'). I don't understand your insistence on making Kirk, Kirk, not Shatner, older than he needs to be.

Kirk - Kirk, not Shatner - looks like a paunchy, out-of-shape middle-aged man in a toupee who was placed on the side of that rock by a crane of some kind. Kirk - Kirk, not Shatner - does not look like a man capable of any feat of physical endurance more taxing than a jog around the neighborhood.

 

[eyeresist]

Dare I say that "It's only a movie"?

Sure you can. But that statement could ultimately apply to nearly every thread on the board. People come here to share discuss and debate things that only happened in fiction. That's kind of the point of a message board like this. If your feeling about most of it is....jeez it's only a movie or show, then youre kind of wasting your time on here.

What I mean is, every single instance of Trek has some aspect at which one could throw up one's hands and say "For fuck's sake, that's just stupid." To focus excessively on minor elements of the things one hates as though they are the worst things in the history of ever, and as though the things one likes don't also have those elements, shows a lack of sense of proportion.

For instance, in TWOK, the best loved Trek movie, Khan is supposed to be Indian and Montelban is obviously not. Also, Kirk ignoring regulations and consequently getting his ship crippled is an incredibly bone-headed move for a supposedly great captain. Why aren't there bile-filled threads about these stupid mistakes? Because the movie as a whole is superior.
Correspondingly, focusing on a small detail of one minor scene as an instance of why the entire film is so terrible misses the point. TFF fails because of the broad strokes, not the tiny details.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

What's weird is when I meet older people who won't watch black-and-white anymore. "But . . but . . . you grew up in the forties."

Hmm. Wonder what's on MeTV right now . ...

Now that's something I've not encountered. And by "older" I mean over 40. At that age they should have had sufficient exposure to films and television from before their time.

Yeah, but some over 40 were reared to see any B&W production as "old," even in the case of some 1960s TV series that made the transition to color just one season later. Color is too often packaged as something relevant--alive, while B&W is booted to corner as "ancient" or archival--but not to be fully appreciated.

Now that's something I've not encountered. And by "older" I mean over 40. At that age they should have had sufficient exposure to films and television from before their time.

Yeah, but some over 40 were reared to see any B&W production as "old," even in the case of some 1960s TV series that made the transition to color just one season later. Color is too often packaged as something relevant--alive, while B&W is booted to corner as "ancient" or archival--but not to be fully appreciated.

Their loss.

Yeah, but some over 40 were reared to see any B&W production as "old," even in the case of some 1960s TV series that made the transition to color just one season later. Color is too often packaged as something relevant--alive, while B&W is booted to corner as "ancient" or archival--but not to be fully appreciated.

Their loss.

Agreed.

(Says the guy who was watching an old "Perry Mason" episode last night--in glorious black-and-white.)

I'm in my mid 40's and I take the occasional pictures in black and white with Kodak TMAX 400 B&W film on my film SLR (and sometimes on my digital cameras.)

I own a fair amount of films and shows in B/W, half of the Christmas specials and movies I watched today where from that era.

Actually when I first hooked my PS2 up to my HDTV, for some reason the scart doesn't transmit the colour, I found I have a way of watching any movie I like in B/W even if it's a colour DVD. It's been a fun while checking out most of my horror collection that way.

I want to try that out with films from my collection on my LG TV set!

I will say this-not all younger people hate black and white things.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

Dare I say that "It's only a movie"?

You're right- and as just a piece of entertainment, " Star Trek V:The Final Frontier has a lot going for it as "just a movie"!

-The interaction of Kirk-Spock-McCoy is the culmination of their relationships from TOS; great chemistry! How TMP forgot this is one of the missteps of TMP- here, it has never been better. DeForest Kelley was never better. Shatner gave it all he had.

Shatner understood that the Big 3 WERE "Star Trek", no matter what Takei, Koenig, Nichols, & Doohan would like to believe. Don't blame them for being wanting of more screen time as actors with egos, but TOS has always been Shatner, Nimoy & Kelley.

-This movie was not poorly directed. Every scene makes sense. Making fun of Shatner as director is just a chance to slam The Shat.

-The Gerry Goldsmith score is one of the best of the film series. The sets are good-the Enterprise A- the bridge and the room with the sea ship wheel are cool.

- Most of the humor is good too. Exceptions- " Hold Your horse captain, I'm scanning", "Go Climb a rock" t shirt. Scotty banging his head was funny. (If this was Shatner trying to make Doohan look stupid, that's interesting...) "Row,Row,Row Your Boat" is a classic scene. Sulu & Chekov lost in the forest is cute.

-Why are people so grossed out by Uhura's fan dance? I've never got this. Its not like you can see anything; she's in the dark mostly. Its possible to be sexy and not 25 years old.

-Bad FX don't bother me. I like classic Doctor Who, after all.

-I like seeing Kirk stand up to a god being-- ala "Who Mourns for Adonis?" (You're no God to US, Mister!) Super confident Kirk is the best.

-Why people are characterizing Kirk climbing El Capatain as "unrealistic"... You realize we're talking about a movie with green blooded aliens, right? Haha.

-I think Shatner feels like he has to apologize publicly for this movie, but he shouldn't.

1989 was the summer of
"Batman" and a distant second "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade". STV didn't have a chance, but within the 300 hours of vast Star Trek entertainment it has its place.

(For what its worth, the Theatrical One Sheet was beautiful too!)

 

[eyeresist]

^ I agree with all your points, except the Uhura fan dance. Not so much out of ageism, but because it's a bit too sexist and camp. Like, "We need a distraction - quick, Uhura, get your tits out!" I realise it is done in a sense of innocent fun, but still it's a bit too much for me.

Re the one-sheet, do you mean the poster image which was on the soundtrack album?

 

[FormerLurker]

One of the deleted lines (I don't remember if it was filmed or not) was Uhura saying, "You guys wait here, I've got this." or some such, giving the impression that the fan dance was Uhura's idea. I think it made it into the novelization, but I don't remember.

 

[eyeresist]

And Uhura happened to have a recording (of her singing) to dance to as well! Maybe she had been planning this for a while, just waiting for the opportunity....

 

[Captrek]

And Uhura happened to have a recording (of her singing) to dance to as well! Maybe she had been planning this for a while, just waiting for the opportunity....

She thought she had a recording of her singing, but was rather dismayed to discover it was someone else's voice.

 

[eyeresist]

Is that a joke? I thought it was her voice.