Spoilers Anakin as the chosen one in the context of TLJ

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by WarpFactorZ, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. psCargile

    psCargile Captain Captain

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    If you had no plans for a 7, 8, and 9, then yes, he was the Chosen One. If you sell your product and the buyer decides to go ahead with 7, 8, and 9, then. . .good question.
     
  2. Jedi_Master

    Jedi_Master Admiral Admiral

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    I tend to ignore all the "Chosen One" nonsense from the Prequels. It is a plot point best discarded.
     
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  3. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Faithful enough, I guess. Didn't Luke say that balance was achieved for a while? It wasn't permanent, apparently, but that meshes with a lot of pre-ST speculation.

    Previously thought by who? The Jedi never gave any indication in the previous films that their concept of balance did not involve both light and dark sides.

    It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users.

    That is not a change. The Sith use the dark side of the Force. They are not the same thing as the dark side of the Force.

    In the 'Making Of' book for TPM, Lucas referred to a balance between good and evil; in the LA Times he said that both sides of the Force need to be there; in a Clone Wars meeting ( as seen on the saga Blu-ray set ) he called the light and dark sides "the core of the Force" and spoke of keeping them in balance; he used similar language in "The Mythology of Star Wars".
    [ Also, the fortune cookie for one of the other Clone Wars episodes was "without darkness there can be no light". ]

    He referred to the dark side in the last season of The Clone Wars.
    ( He also referred to it in Dark Lord, a novel which is no longer considered canon under the Disney regime. )
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  4. General_Phoenix

    General_Phoenix Commander Red Shirt

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    I was thinking that during Rey's cave scene, when she wanted to see her parents and she saw her own reflection, that she may have been conceived by the force same as Anakin, they didn't go that direction. Although it is something to chew on, perhaps Kylo knows this, is jealous, and plants the junker parents in her mind as a red herring.

    It somewhat mirrors Luke's Dagobah cave moment, where if Luke gives into hate he will become that which he seeks to destroy. It was also the first hint in ESB that Vader was Luke's father.
     
  5. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I’ve never been a fan of the Chosen One idea. Its one that’s overused a lot of in genre works. And it never quite set right with me that Lucas deemed Anakin the Chosen One, since it made more sense for it to be Luke. However, with the ‘closing’ of the saga in ROTS, Lucas was adamant about it being Anakin.

    Since Disney bought it I think they’ve undermined the idea that Anakin is the Chosen One. Just last year, when Maul and Obi-Wan fought on Tatoonine, Obi-Wan says Luke is the Chosen One.

    As I’ve been mulling over TLJ and various commentaries about it, it made me think about Lucas and his love-hate relationship with Star Wars. I wonder if he just put in the Chosen One thing and insisted on it being Anakin to close the saga. At that point the wanted it done, and having Anakin (as opposed to Luke) being the Chosen One tied a nice bow on things since Anakin fulfilled his destiny by destroying the Sith. That being said, if there is one Jedi left (Luke) and no Sith, then the force remained out of balance, just tilted in favor of the light. Perhaps that is what led to Snoke’s creation, that the Force needed to balance itself so it created a counterpoint to Luke. And Snoke is not a Sith, but a servant of the dark side or a manifestation of it, and when he brings over Kylo Ren, the Force balances again with the creation of Rey. The cycle will never end, though the light and dark sides might eventually use other ways to best express themselves than through the Jedi and Sith religions.

    Where this fits in for TLJ, I think Rey easily could just be the new, or real Chosen One. Having Rey as the Chosen One opens up the possibilities for more stories. Or maybe the new films just won’t bring up the Chosen One and prophecy at all. The EU went far into Star Wars future and continued the Jedi/Sith war. Some of that was done before the prequels and Lucas’s concept of the Chosen One, but some was done after. Perhaps that’s a model that the new films should emulate.
     
  6. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, Luke is supposed to be the Chosen One now.

    I found this to be quite a significant revelation/retcon/whatever, when I saw that episode of Rebels. I was surprised that there didn't seem to be much discussion or uproar about it online.

    Kor
     
  7. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Commodore Commodore

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    I suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive. Anakin was seen as the one to bring balance to the Force. He just did so by siring Luke.
     
  8. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Obi-wan lost all faith in Anakin being redeemable, thus thought that Luke was the Chosen One. Even the Rebels production staff point out that Anakin is still the Chosen One who does bring balance to the Force. It is just that Obi-wan's point of view can't see that happening anymore due to what has happened, so he's but his faith in Luke instead.

    The Lucas based point, isn't that the Dark Side is the imbalance, it was the Sith in particular that were bringing the imbalance. Anakin ended the Sith.
     
  9. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Honestly, I trust Obi-Wan more than I trust George Lucas. Even if Anakin did the deed by killing himself and Palpatine, Luke is the one who made it happen. I imagine that's probably also the popular interpretation of the Son of the Suns, especially since Luke and Leia never made it public (willingly) that their father was Darth Vader, and no one but Luke seemed to care if he changed his mind in the final minutes of his life. Bloodlines is kind of ambiguous if they even disclosed that their father was Anakin Skywalker, though it did seem to be public knowledge they were siblings separated at birth.
     
  10. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Remember, Obi-wan thinks that Anakin is dead, only Darth Vader remains. Luke is the key to destroying the Sith, that was what Erza was looking for in his visions. Luke is the key to unlock Anakin from the shell of Darth Vader, and bring about the end of the Sith by the Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker.
     
  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Whatever "Balance of the Force" truly means, it's something the Jedi seek, and something the Sith oppose.
     
  12. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The floor pattern at the first Jedi temple that Luke is at shows what is supposedly the first Jedi in meditation. That image is of a being in both light and dark, like a Yin-Yang symbol in the shape of a person. Balanced in the Force. There is always the Light and Dark Side of the Force, and the Jedi of old knew that. The Sith appear to be a corruption in the Force by using the Dark Side to bend the Force to their will and attempting to reshape the galaxy and the Force, which brings it out of balance. Plus building large seemingly Force empowered superweapons using kyber crystals to destroy part of the galaxy also seems to be a bit of unbalancing of the Force. But that might just be me. It was proven that the Sith did use to build huge superweapons in the distant past and that at the heart of each was a giant kyber crystal. What is not know, is if the Jedi did in kind back then, to counter the Sith superweapons with their own weapons. Probably not, but there is a lot about the distant past that remains legendary.
     
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  13. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users. That's why it was previously said that Anakin brought balance in ROTJ, in contradiction to the above.

    That was this year, not last year.

    As Ithekro said, since Obi-Wan at the time of Rebels doesn't foresee Anakin's redemption, it would make sense for him to assume Luke is the Chosen One at that point. But that doesn't make it a correct assumption. A character having a belief doesn't make that belief automatically true. Of course when the episode came out everybody treated it as this big retcon, despite the fact that the very concept of the Sequel Trilogy essentially argued against it.
     
  14. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can see how Obi-Van's faith would be shaken, but I would think he would become cynical of the prophecy in general. Luke is His and Yoda's "chosen one" in a way, but Obi Wan talks to Qui Gonn, and Qui Gonn was adamant that Anakin would indeed save the universe.

    I hope they don't make the ending to be some "grey jedi" fanon thing. Dark side is just a metaphor for evil. In the first 6 film "light side" is not a thing. It's just "The Force."

    If it's like Yin/Yang(as I understand it), then the dark side(like the sith, snoke, or kilo) have no part of Yin/Yang, and the Jedi already embody that Y/Y balance.

    The light and dark in Y/Y don't symbolize good/evil. They symbolize sun/moon, day/night, aggressive/passive, etc. In Y/Y, the light side is aggressive, proactive, masculine. The dark side is passive, feminine, etc. They compliment each other for good. Good and evil don't compliment each other. A liar and an honest person don't compliment each other, nor does a murderer and a righteous person.

    I think each Jedi finds this balance already; individually and collectively.

    While the Sith strive on excess, hatred, sadism, and other evils that give them power. They are neither Yin or Yang.
     
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  15. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This year, last year? Is that really a big deal enough to point out? Is the year germane to the discussion? Geez. Last season, season 3 of Rebels, are you happy now?

    As for the balance of the Force, how exactly is it balanced? Perhaps by the people who use it and if you have more dark users than light users that tips it toward the dark and vice versa? I don’t see what point you’re trying to make here.
     
  16. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It isn't about the users, its about someone using the Force in a way that unbalances it on a galactic scale. The Sith were doing that. Snoke might have been doing that, but we are not sure. Kylo Ren might do that, but what has been said is that there is an awakening. There may or may not be balance in the Force, since the force in balance is not there to stop wars between the peoples of the galaxy.
     
  17. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Sith and their ideology favoring the Darkside at the expense of the rest of the Force was extinct.
     
  18. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure what time period you are referring to. I mean in the prequel era the Sith were around, they were just in hiding. While they no longer had the numbers of the Jedi Order they wielded a corrupting influence, which made them far more dangerous because they weren't out in the open and they were perhaps helping corrupt the Republic from within. The EU, which was canon (or semi-canon) at one time went into a lot of detail showing many in the line of Sith Lords from Darth Bane (who survived the near extinction of the Sith) to Sidious and Vader. (And they went beyond ROTJ as well with the Lost Tribe of Sith, Lumiya's Sith,and the One Sith; the EU also explored the ancient history of the Sith as well in books, comics, and video games). The original trilogy had the Sith ruling the galaxy out right, and the sequels have dark side users (albeit not Sith) still out there and till with significant power.

    Anakin's balancing act in ROTJ perhaps left just Luke and Snoke, as representing the two halves. And the scales were tipped by Snoke and his apprentices or by Luke and his apprentices, and eventually perhaps once the balance had shifted more to the dark side and Luke had cut himself off from the Force, the Force created Rey or invested in her tremendous powers to restore the balance.
     
  19. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was called "the good side" in TESB. The name changed along the way, big deal. We don't say that Cassius Clay was never a thing. And they talk about the dark side a lot, not just "the Force".

    The Sith, Snoke, and Kylo are not the dark side. The yin/yang analogy applies to the sides of the Force.

    Well, sometimes they do.

    "Impressive. Most impressive." :techman:

    It's not the balance of the Force-users; the Force-users are not the Force. It's not a Force user head count. The Force wasn't unbalanced toward the light during the PT. If it worked that way the Jedi would not have wanted to see the prophecy fulfilled.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  20. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Okay, then what does it mean for the Force to be unbalanced then? Even in the prequels, we see that the Jedi Council has diminished abilities because the darkness is growing, and that could be an incentive for them to seek balance in the Force, which they are interpreting is a good thing. But in ROTS, the Jedi also express some doubt about misreading the prophecy.

    How does the Force get out of balance if it’s not tied to the users? The people who can wield it?