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Spoilers Altered Carbon Season 1

Sorry, I got ahead of myself and forgot to double check myself before I posted. I actually was talking about the later books in the series the show is based on.

Well, it is the show we're assessing for its treatment of the issue, not the books. If the show didn't do the things that the books did to address the racial issue, that is the very essence of the problem. After all, that's what whitewashing is -- taking an original work that's more inclusive and changing it in the adaptation to be more white-centric.
 
No, I don't believe that happened. As far as I recall, we only saw Kovacs in sleeves played by Will Yun Lee, Byron Mann, and Joel Kinnaman, in chronological order; plus there's a virtual-reality scene where he disguises himself as someone else, but it's a white man. You must be thinking of something you read about a different character who does inhabit a significant number of different sleeves.
Actually, when Kovacs is debriefed by the parole officer (or whoever he was), we see Kovacs' rap sheet and his photo changes to include different sleeves, including several we didn't see in any flashbacks.
 
Actually, when Kovacs is debriefed by the parole officer (or whoever he was), we see Kovacs' rap sheet and his photo changes to include different sleeves, including several we didn't see in any flashbacks.

But that's not the same as actually seeing him performed by a given actor, or seeing the issue of his sleeve ethnicity preferences actually addressed in dialogue. We're talking about what the production chooses to put front and center vs. what it chooses to avoid or marginalize. A few photos glimpsed for two seconds definitely fall into the "marginalized" column.
 
But that's not the same as actually seeing him performed by a given actor, or seeing the issue of his sleeve ethnicity preferences actually addressed in dialogue. We're talking about what the production chooses to put front and center vs. what it chooses to avoid or marginalize. A few photos glimpsed for two seconds definitely fall into the "marginalized" column.
Yes, I know, Christopher. I agree with you about marginalization. I was merely correcting your notion that Kovacs only had the three sleeves.
 
Yes, I know, Christopher. I agree with you about marginalization. I was merely correcting your notion that Kovacs only had the three sleeves.

That is not a "correction," because I was talking specifically about the sleeves we saw Kovacs actually inhabiting during the story, the ones portrayed by actors performing dialogue and action. So sleeves he inhabited before the story's events, or off-camera like in the flashbacks in episode 7, don't count.
 
That is not a "correction," because I was talking specifically about the sleeves we saw Kovacs actually inhabiting during the story, the ones portrayed by actors performing dialogue and action. So sleeves he inhabited before the story's events, or off-camera like in the flashbacks in episode 7, don't count.

Huh? His original, Asian (should really be half-Asian judging by backstory, but whatever) sleeve is featured in flashbacks in almost every single episode, including all of episode 7, making it an integral part of the story. No one could possibly watch the season and be under the impression he was the white body he happens to inhabit.

It seems to me that a lot of the impact would have been somewhat lost if the sleeve he inhabited happened to be an East Asian guy as well. They could have made the main actor black, Latino, or even South Asian and still had a similar effect however.
 
Huh? His original, Asian (should really be half-Asian judging by backstory, but whatever) sleeve is featured in flashbacks in almost every single episode, including all of episode 7, making it an integral part of the story.

Yes, and that is one of the sleeves I mentioned in post #39. When I say "during the story," I'm obviously including the flashbacks, because those are part of the story. I'm talking about the actors who portrayed sleeves of Takeshi Kovacs in dialogue scenes, namely Joel Kinnaman, Will Yun Lee, and Byron Mann, as opposed to other sleeves that we only glimpsed in photos or heard about in dialogue.
 
Yes, and that is one of the sleeves I mentioned in post #39. When I say "during the story," I'm obviously including the flashbacks, because those are part of the story. I'm talking about the actors who portrayed sleeves of Takeshi Kovacs in dialogue scenes, namely Joel Kinnaman, Will Yun Lee, and Byron Mann, as opposed to other sleeves that we only glimpsed in photos or heard about in dialogue. When the subject is actor portrayals in on-camera scenes, it doesn't matter when in the story's internal timeline the scenes occurred, because we're talking about a real-world distinction between characters played by actors and characters only referred to in the abstract.

I guess my response was to your broader issue. I just don't see what is "problematic" about how Kovacs is depicted in the season, since they made it as abundantly clear as possible he wasn't actually a white guy without including some internal monologue about his disgust in his body or something. He's played by an Asian actor to some degree in every episode. He has a half-Asian sister. He has an Asian mother. He speaks fluent Japanese.

Now, if you have an issue that they chose Joel Kinnaman for the lead instead of a POC, I think that's a fair criticism. There was no story need for him to be white - only to be different from Kovac's body of birth. But that's ultimately a casting criticism, not a within-show criticism. And considering outside of the Bancroft family there's very few other white main cast members on the show, I think they've done a pretty good job in terms of having a diverse cast.
 
And considering outside of the Bancroft family there's very few other white main cast members on the show, I think they've done a pretty good job in terms of having a diverse cast.

Sure, that's true as far as it goes. But as long as diversity remains limited to supporting characters instead of the actual central characters, as long as we're still being asked and expected to view even the most diverse setting through the viewpoint of a white man (or an Asian character played by a white man or woman, which is even worse), then there's still a glass ceiling that needs to be broken. Being the star makes a huge difference. Black Lightning on The CW is more of a breakthrough character than Spartan or Kid Flash. Black Panther is more of a breakthrough movie lead than War Machine or Falcon. Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are more important breakthrough roles than Lois Lane and Pepper Potts. Doctor Who has always had female companions, but Jodie Whittaker becoming the actual Doctor is a much huger deal. It's always been okay to have diverse supporting characters, at least for most of the past half-century, but it's been a long, hard fight to break through to lead roles. The difference absolutely does matter.

Heck, I've felt that way since I was a kid. I'd see all these ensemble casts like Star Trek and Barney Miller where you had diverse supporting players but the top-billed actor was always a white man, and that just didn't seem fair to me -- why can't someone else get a turn at the top? I was taught from an early age that it's polite to share your toys, to let everyone get their turn on the swings. And even aside from any fair-play considerations, it went against my deep-seated desire for symmetry and balance. I guess that's why the majority of the lead characters in my original fiction are female, nonwhite, or LGBT -- just to try to balance things out.
 
Heck, I've felt that way since I was a kid. I'd see all these ensemble casts like Star Trek and Barney Miller where you had diverse supporting players but the top-billed actor was always a white man, and that just didn't seem fair to me -- why can't someone else get a turn at the top? I was taught from an early age that it's polite to share your toys, to let everyone get their turn on the swings. And even aside from any fair-play considerations, it went against my deep-seated desire for symmetry and balance. I guess that's why the majority of the lead characters in my original fiction are female, nonwhite, or LGBT -- just to try to balance things out.

Do you not remember DS9 or Voyager? While the Trek franchise has had its issues (particularly around sexuality) it broke through the non white/male lead thing 25 years ago.
 
Do you not remember DS9 or Voyager? While the Trek franchise has had its issues (particularly around sexuality) it broke through the non white/male lead thing 25 years ago.

You seem to have lost the thread of the conversation. We've been talking specifically about Asian representation for days now. It's still vanishingly rare to see an Asian actor in a starring role in any Hollywood feature production that isn't a martial-arts movie, and it's pretty rare in series television too, although as with most things, TV is less regressive about it than features are.
 
Alright, after finishing up the season, there were two notable plot holes I can't quite understand:

1. As part of Kovac's plan to frame Oumou Prescott, he has Ava Eliott extract a virus from the old envoy stacks. We clearly see at the start of the series he recovered these stacks some time after the attack on the envoy base and had them on his person when he was captured. How the hell did they get to Earth 250 years later? Had they been storing personal effects of his the entire time?

2. I don't see why Laurens Bancroft was charged with murder and taken away at the end of the show. While he did perma-kill a prostitute, he did so under the influence of a psychotropic that his wife and Reileen Kawahara purposefully drugged him with in order to incite him to murder. Hence, he isn't really culpable for what he had done at that time. He might feel bad for it, but shouldn't go to jail.
 
Alright, after finishing up the season, there were two notable plot holes I can't quite understand:

1. As part of Kovac's plan to frame Oumou Prescott, he has Ava Eliott extract a virus from the old envoy stacks. We clearly see at the start of the series he recovered these stacks some time after the attack on the envoy base and had them on his person when he was captured. How the hell did they get to Earth 250 years later? Had they been storing personal effects of his the entire time?

We saw those stacks on display in the museum that distorted the history of the Envoy rebellion -- in the scene where Kovacs had that conversation with the little girl. I presume he stole them from the museum. Still, that could've been clarified.


2. I don't see why Laurens Bancroft was charged with murder and taken away at the end of the show. While he did perma-kill a prostitute, he did so under the influence of a psychotropic that his wife and Reileen Kawahara purposefully drugged him with in order to incite him to murder. Hence, he isn't really culpable for what he had done at that time. He might feel bad for it, but shouldn't go to jail.

Bancroft was committing a crime by beating women's sleeves to death, even if he didn't intend to kill them permanently. We saw that people who intend to commit acts of deadly violence against a person's sleeve, like the zero-g fight between the married couple, need to receive a Major Organic Damage permit from the police and perform the act under the supervision of a police observer. Killing or severely damaging someone's sleeve without the proper legal permits would still be a crime, though it might be considered more vandalism than assault. It was made pretty clear that Bancroft was committing these acts against prostitutes in secret, without proper permits or police oversight. And it's a principle of U.S. law in real life that if you inadvertently or accidentally contribute to someone's death during the commission of a felony, that automatically constitutes felony murder. Assuming that same legal principle applies in the future, Bancroft would be on the hook for the murder because his felony contributed to it, however unintentionally.
 
I mean, one one level, getting to see a whole room full of completely naked Dichen Lachman clones was amazing (I honestly didn't expect her to do a nude scene, and she did it in spades), but the fact that they were all covered in blood and getting gunned down en masse made it rather less fun. Some people might get off on a fantasy like that, but is that really the target audience they want to go for?

While we're on the subject... After rewatching that scene, I think I can finally confirm that Lachman's hair color is her natural shade. But we saw that Reileen had black hair as a child, so it must be dyed in-story, and thus her clones should have black hair. Unless she gene-modded herself with lighter hair.

I'm so glad you drew our attention to this, especially the attention you paid to the colour of the curtains.
 
Just finished it and a fantastic concept and very well educated even if the start of the season seemed a bit slow.

The ending floored me.. so much pain but also in equal measure some happy endings but Poe's death really got me as i started to care and enjoy his quirks and style. An AI who seemed more human than most.

I'll be there for Season 2.. Netflix is really becoming my go to media outlet. I can't remember when i turned on my TV last and then it was to watch Netflix on it :D
 
Sure, that's true as far as it goes. But as long as diversity remains limited to supporting characters instead of the actual central characters, as long as we're still being asked and expected to view even the most diverse setting through the viewpoint of a white man (or an Asian character played by a white man or woman, which is even worse), then there's still a glass ceiling that needs to be broken. Being the star makes a huge difference. Black Lightning on The CW is more of a breakthrough character than Spartan or Kid Flash. Black Panther is more of a breakthrough movie lead than War Machine or Falcon. Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are more important breakthrough roles than Lois Lane and Pepper Potts. Doctor Who has always had female companions, but Jodie Whittaker becoming the actual Doctor is a much huger deal. It's always been okay to have diverse supporting characters, at least for most of the past half-century, but it's been a long, hard fight to break through to lead roles. The difference absolutely does matter.

Heck, I've felt that way since I was a kid. I'd see all these ensemble casts like Star Trek and Barney Miller where you had diverse supporting players but the top-billed actor was always a white man, and that just didn't seem fair to me -- why can't someone else get a turn at the top? I was taught from an early age that it's polite to share your toys, to let everyone get their turn on the swings. And even aside from any fair-play considerations, it went against my deep-seated desire for symmetry and balance. I guess that's why the majority of the lead characters in my original fiction are female, nonwhite, or LGBT -- just to try to balance things out.
Shouldn't all of this anger be directed at Richard K. Morgan for writing a book with a white guy as the main sleeve Kovacs ends up with, rather than the people who made the show who were just following the book's lead.
I can understand getting frustrated with original shows where they are able to create pretty much any kind of character as their lead, but in a case like this it's not really the show's fault.
 
Shouldn't all of this anger be directed at Richard K. Morgan for writing a book with a white guy as the main sleeve Kovacs ends up with, rather than the people who made the show who were just following the book's lead.
I can understand getting frustrated with original shows where they are able to create pretty much any kind of character as their lead, but in a case like this it's not really the show's fault.

I'm confused, JD. We just had this discussion five days ago in this very thread, in posts #38-40. I explained then why the show did a worse job than the book at addressing the racial issue. At the time, you expressed understanding and acceptance of my explanation. So I don't understand why you'd ask a question like this.

Besides, the issue is not any single show. The issue is the overall industry pattern. Any given show or movie that excludes an Asian lead may have a good-sounding explanation for it, but the problem is the near-complete lack of movies and shows that don't exclude Asian leads. It would be nice if something broke the pattern, and the problem is that nobody is stepping up.
 
That was about the show not addressing the race change, this time I'm talking about the race being changed in the book.
I just don't think it's fair to get pissed that an adaptation is adapting the source material.
Like I said before, I agree that there should be more diversity in Hollywood, but I hold adaptations to a different standard.
If they had decided to make the main sleeve Asian it would have been cool, but I can also understand wanting to stick to the book.
 
That was about the show not addressing the race change, this time I'm talking about the race being changed in the book.

I don't see the distinction.


I just don't think it's fair to get pissed that an adaptation is adapting the source material.

First off, as I just said, it's entirely missing the point to think this is about any single work in isolation. It's about the systematic exclusion of the entire industry. A single work wouldn't be a problem if not for the larger pattern.

Second, why are you using words like "angry" and "pissed?" I was not angry when I wrote that post. I don't know why you're projecting that onto my words. Frankly, it's ad hominem and feels like an attempt to discredit my words, to suggest they aren't worthy of consideration because they're just emotional ranting, which they are not.
 
Sorry, it just seemed to me like you're getting worked up.
And once again, I agree with you in general on the diversity issue, but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about adaptations changing, or not changing things. Two totally different issues.
 
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