All Our Yesterdays...haunting...

[Marsden]

Plus, telling Mr Atoz that they were little green men from Alpha Centauri may not have been the most productive use of their time.

On a slightly more serious note, what makes you think Atoz would have believed that?


Kirk: Hi, we're from space, .....

Atoz thinking: They must be from a mental hospital, best not to listen to anything they say.

 

[Greg Cox]

Plus, telling Mr Atoz that they were little green men from Alpha Centauri may not have been the most productive use of their time.

On a slightly more serious note, what makes you think Atoz would have believed that?


Kirk: Hi, we're from space, .....

Atoz thinking: They must be from a mental hospital, best not to listen to anything they say.

Especially since the folks on Sarpeidon never seem to have developed space travel or had any contact with other planets, so the very concept of aliens from space may not have been part of their culture.

Sarpeidon is an odd place in that they seem to have mastered time-travel without ever developing any sort of spaceflight capacity . . .

 

[Metryq]

Sarpeidon is an odd place in that they seem to have mastered time-travel without ever developing any sort of spaceflight capacity . . .

In other words, they looked to the past, not the future. With or without the nova, Sarpeidon was a civilization without a future. When Kirk asked about current events, Atoz told him there wasn't much demand for that. And then there was the whole business about Spock regressing. I don't know if learning from the past and planning for the future was the point of the episode, but that's what I got out of it.

As for the plot discontinuities—such as the Federation sending a starship only hours before the nova—the story would have worked out much better as a dark and moody TWILIGHT ZONE episode without shoehorning the Trek crew into it.

 

[Timo]

the Federation sending a starship only hours before the nova

Well, novae are fast-paced things: all the interesting stuff will happen within hours anyway. If you already know the detonation schedule so precisely, hence have all the data you'd ever need on that part, why linger beforehand? You can always linger afterwards.

But if the idea really was to study the nova (rather than the planet), why does Kirk order maximum warp away from the phenomenon at the end? Well, studying the nova up close would not be a good idea: the heroes wouldn't have intended to be anywhere near the planet when the star blew. But scientific results might have been nicely obtained even at high warp, as long as Sulu didn't pilot the ship any farther out than the originally intended survey distance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Metryq]

Well, novae are fast-paced things: all the interesting stuff will happen within hours anyway. If you already know the detonation schedule so precisely, hence have all the data you'd ever need on that part, why linger beforehand?

The Enterprise's mission was not to study the nova. As others above have noted, what was the Enterprise to do with a planet full of people with only hours before the catastrophe? Kirk told Atoz that they came as soon as they knew what was happening, which explains why a comprehensive evacuation had not been initiated months or years before.

As for "all the interesting stuff happening within hours," today's astronomers don't actually know what causes a nova. So far that is only theoretical. Yet based on that theory, there are various "rumblings" and precursors to the actual nova. It is simply surprising that 23rd century astronomers can calculate the threshold moment within minutes, yet Starfleet and the Federation sat around and did nothing until it was far too late to do anything but shoot an episode.

(Nothing like bureaucratic red tape. Someone probably submitted the proper forms with time to spare, but the Federation was backlogged on its "paperwork" due to guys like Samuel Cogley who still use actual paper.)

The Sarpeidons were not taken off guard. Atoz told Kirk that "everyone was warned of the coming nova long ago." So again, why was the Enterprise sent?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

In other words, they looked to the past, not the future. With or without the nova, Sarpeidon was a civilization without a future. When Kirk asked about current events, Atoz told him there wasn't much demand for that. And then there was the whole business about Spock regressing. I don't know if learning from the past and planning for the future was the point of the episode, but that's what I got out of it.

It was not that the inhabitants rejected the future--it was a practical matter Atoz referred to: with present-day civilization understanding what was happening to the planet, why would they have much interest in current events / time?

They lived it, but there was a hard end beyond their power to control. Considering that, the past would be attractive to any using the Atavachron.

Although it was not in the script, we should assume the population invested all resources into escape options, but determined there was no way to stop the nova, so why commit more time to anything other than the one invention that guaranteed survival?

 

[Timo]

So again, why was the Enterprise sent?

To study the nova, I say. The opening log establishes that the planet had already been studied, and we can conjecture it had been decreed off limits because of PD issues. Plus there was nothing interesting down there. So Starfleet waits for the interesting kaboom instead, and sends a ship when that one is imminent.

So Kirk came to study the nova - but found out that the Sarpeidonites had disappeared, which both mooted the PD and posed a mystery big enough for the PD to be waived anyway.

Kirk: "You're a very agile man, Mister Atoz. Just how many of you are there? We came as soon as we knew what was happening -"
Spock: "Forgive me, Sir. It is my fault. I must have miscalculated. Our readings indicated that there was no one here at all."

What does this odd dialogue mean? Kirk says they came as soon as they knew, well, something, and Spock says they came because they thought there was nobody there. This would very nicely fit the idea that Kirk came as soon as he became aware that the PD was moot - while Spock laments that this was a mistake because Mr Atoz is still very much there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sarpeidon is an odd place in that they seem to have mastered time-travel without ever developing any sort of spaceflight capacity . . .

Interestingly, part of the premise of Asimov's The End of Eternity is that its culture, having employed time travel to alter history with the intent of improving it, has fallen into a trap of eliminating interstellar travel.

 

[Ithekro]

Perhaps they had Iconian technology or Stargate style tech to visit other worlds, but decided it was best to go to their own past instead of other planets.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Perhaps they had Iconian technology or Stargate style tech to visit other worlds, but decided it was best to go to their own past instead of other planets.

That's the most hopeful idea: most of the Sarpies went through portals to other star systems, and only a few history buffs went to "The Library" where Mr. Atoz and his time machine offered a trip to Sarpiedon's past.

 

[Sistrin]

I always liked this episode. Given the third season of TOS it was a gold nugget in a puddle of mud.

 

[Metryq]

It was not that the inhabitants rejected the future--

Allegory. I wasn't talking about the inhabitants, I was talking about the message of the story.

Kirk says they came as soon as they knew, well, something, and Spock says they came because they thought there was nobody there. This would very nicely fit the idea that Kirk came as soon as he became aware that the PD was moot - while Spock laments that this was a mistake because Mr Atoz is still very much there.

Well, it's a theory, but it also opens up other problems. Does Starfleet (on behalf of the Federation) have discreet spy-sats in the Sarpeidon system, or are we to believe that Starfleet suddenly has sensors that work over interstellar distances that we've never seen before? (Some episodes speak of "long range sensors," but they never struck me as effective over many lightyears. If they were, why would Starfleet need ships?)

Even then, Starfleet would have known about the decreasing population. It would takes years—even assuming no new births at all—to move the entire population of a planet, especially if there was only one Library. So whether the sensors are local (spy-sats) or interstellar, the Federation would have known something was going on long before the last few hours.

The bit about Zor Kahn the Tyrant suggests the Sarpeidons have had the time portal for a good portion of their history—that it was not built for the sole purpose of escaping the nova. And that puts a whole new spin on things. I got the impression Zarabeth did not come from the same era as Atoz because a tyrant who scatters political enemies to the distant past would not bother rescuing the peons. He would save only himself and his circle of elites—setting themselves up elsewhere in history and damn the paradoxiquences—while the "little people" left behind would roast with the nova.

(On top of everything else, Spock said he recognized Zor Kahn from the archives, yet Atoz said there was very little on recent history. So again, we can have a story with non sequiturs, or no story at all.)

 

[Timo]

Does Starfleet (on behalf of the Federation) have discreet spy-sats in the Sarpeidon system, or are we to believe that Starfleet suddenly has sensors that work over interstellar distances that we've never seen before?

Well, no. Why should they have anything like that? There was a previous survey about the planet and the star; the planet was found to be off limits and the star was found to be dying; and a second survey was scheduled to observe the death of the star. No observations were made in between, so the UFP missed the introduction of the atavarchon and the exodus of the population.

It's only when Kirk starts surveying the star that he suddenly finds out the planet is empty, and makes an appropriate log entry, then moves in to investigate.

The bit about Zor Kahn the Tyrant suggests the Sarpeidons have had the time portal for a good portion of their history—that it was not built for the sole purpose of escaping the nova. And that puts a whole new spin on things. I got the impression Zarabeth did not come from the same era as Atoz because a tyrant who scatters political enemies to the distant past would not bother rescuing the peons. He would save only himself and his circle of elites—setting themselves up elsewhere in history and damn the paradoxiquences—while the "little people" left behind would roast with the nova.

Good points. But it could just as well be that the might of Zor Khan was the reason enough resources were pooled to create the fantastic time machine, and that the tyrant was overthrown soon thereafter and his machinery put to other use. And conversely, Zor Khan may have risen to power due to the approaching Armageddon.

In any case, the UFP would not have noticed the existence of the atavarchon if it were used only for disposing of political opponents...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Metryq]

No observations were made in between, so the UFP missed the introduction of the atavarchon and the exodus of the population.

Again suggesting that UFP has interstellar scanners that can pick up life-forms: "Okay, the planet is clear now. Zip in and learn what you can about the missing civilization before that star cuts loose." Without this long range scan or spy-sats—meaning they assumed Sarpeidon was still populated—the only thing Starfleet could hope to gain is more info about novae—and they obviously know a great deal about them to be able to calculate the explosion to within minutes! And we keep going round and round. The episode doesn't make any sense.

In any case, the UFP would not have noticed the existence of the atavarchon if it were used only for disposing of political opponents...i

Don't be obtuse. I already said the UFP would have noticed the planet-wide drop in population as the nova approached. There can't be any other reason the Enterprise was there—again, for all the reasons we've been kicking around above. So your argument seems to be that the UFP wouldn't violate the Prime Directive even to rescue a civilization about to be wiped out, which throws a lot of other episodes on the junk heap—from "Errand of Mercy" (interfere with a pre-warp civilization purely for UFP's own interstellar political gain) to "The Paradise Syndrome" (where the Enterprise was already on the way to deflect one wayward rock from hitting a planet without even knowing that sentient life was present).

 

[Gov Kodos]

You'd think they wouldn't give the Prime Directive much more than a brush over considering the planet is about to be destroyed anyway. Can't contaminate a species that is going to be extinct in a few hours.

A society's culture isn't a biological entity that can be contaminated, infected, or diseased. That form of the Prime Directive is loathsome. Fortunately, that's more TNG era than TOS which concerned itself with preventing actual imperialism and conquest rather than condescending paternalism.

 

[Timo]

"Okay, the planet is clear now. Zip in and learn what you can about the missing civilization before that star cuts loose."

No, no, no. Starfleet doesn't know the planet is empty - it never knows such things until a starship goes to have a look. The exodus is a surprise, still registering as such when Kirk dictates his log and moves from nova observation positions to planetary visit positions. And that's consistent as hell: Kirk is always discovering things about populations when arriving in the system or orbit, and never sooner.

the only thing Starfleet could hope to gain is more info about novae

Which is a completely valid interest - remember "The Empath" and a research outpost dedicated to such observations?

There can't be any other reason the Enterprise was there—again, for all the reasons we've been kicking around above.

I have heard of no reason so far. All I hear is "it's impossible that they would know about the exodus unless they had magical sensors, which they shouldn't have, so it doesn't make sense" and other such straw humanoids.

So your argument seems to be that the UFP wouldn't violate the Prime Directive even to rescue a civilization about to be wiped out, which throws a lot of other episodes on the junk heap

No, it's consistent. See "The Empath": the Federation is utterly powerless to do anything about nova victims. Even the mighty Vians find the task too overwhelming. And rightly so - it's very difficult to figure out what could be done. Save 0.8% of the population, so that "the culture can survive" and anthropologists don't have to leave their armchairs to study it?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vandervecken]

I wasn't serious, ya silly.

Jocularity on a Star Trek message board? Surely you can't be serious!

His name is Shirley?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You'd think they wouldn't give the Prime Directive much more than a brush over considering the planet is about to be destroyed anyway. Can't contaminate a species that is going to be extinct in a few hours.

A society's culture isn't a biological entity that can be contaminated, infected, or diseased. That form of the Prime Directive is loathsome. Fortunately, that's more TNG era than TOS which concerned itself with preventing actual imperialism and conquest rather than condescending paternalism.

The PD from Picard's period seemed swiped from post-60s, peacenik, "who are we to judge" philosophy, which was so touchy-feely / clinical, that they should have been in the business of shooting public television documentaries (where the model is to ensure risk is minimal), rather than engaging with new species/civilizations.

 

[Forbin]

I wasn't serious, ya silly.

Jocularity on a Star Trek message board? Surely you can't be serious!

His name is Shirley?

Shirley is my middle name.
No wait - DANGER! Danger is my middle name!

 

[Forbin]

Shirley is my confirmation name.