And I gave them. I regard the names I gave as more iconic than Supergirl, and yet are newer. It's not a function of age.
Alex Kurtzman: 'Star Trek: Discovery' Will Spark Debate And Adhere To Canon
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And I gave them. I regard the names I gave as more iconic than Supergirl, and yet are newer. It's not a function of age.
The question had to do with female characters more iconic than Wonder Woman. You listed several characters, most of which were male. The male characters were obviously not examples of that, and you compared both them and the female characters only to unnamed thousands of other characters, not specifically Wonder Woman.
So, OK, you're saying that Leia Organa and Hermione Granger are each more iconic than Wonder Woman? Uh, no, sorry, they're not.
No, I meant Supergirl. I was answering the point that Wonder Woman is more iconic partly because she is older. No she isnt I was saying. There are characters a lot newer than Supergirl who are also more iconic than Supergirl is. It's not a function of age.
Sorry, the poster in fact meant Supergirl, and I was wrong that they didn't.
Changing Thors gender works fine...because it's more than just a person and works in the story. Having a girl in the Iron Man suit works fine, because it's done as a mantle being passed on etc. There's more being done than sticking on boobs and calling it a day. And even then....they will not eclipse their forebears. (It does happen, but it's pretty rare.)
A character created new has a hard job to do, largely cos of age, but can easily stand shoulder to shoulder in the pantheons.
The best example, not technically a comic book character, is Lara Croft. Don't get much more iconic, and managed it in less than five years, still around after twenty. Though don't get me started on the reboot xD
The new characters in DSC have a better chance of standing shoulder to shoulder with previous Trek Characters than the Kelvin universe ones do for similar reasons. There are no originals for comparison (ignoring Sarek and Mudd, assuming they are guest cast.)
I thought the same about Prince. He even brings his own purple suit. I think part of my annoyance at the presentation of Male Privilege in the popular consciousness is to do with it treating it as a given thing right across the world. Part of the problem is because it's in many ways a 'this group has been established here longer privilege' really, with the male thing coming about because of older systems being very much dependent, when you get down to it, on physical security. The spanner in the works is the Americas, because there is no comfortable claim to being indigenous to the land, combined with e the power the US wields on the world stage. It's a colonisation thing. The politicisation of it to separate people into little groups to turn on each other is distasteful. I have no biological brothers, but the friends who have been as close as to me, are all not from the same ethnic group...my peers educationally in later life have all been majority female....now I am told that they and I cannot stand shoulder to shoulder, because no matter how we see ourselves, we are not the same. Nonsense xD at least it is nonsense, if you truly believe everyone is or should be equal. Divide and conquer from the wannabe rulers I guess. Anyway. I promise not to waffle about it anymore.
Maybe for casual or newer fans? But if you read any of the Jim Starlin Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) stuff, nothing compares. It's one of the most important comic book runs ever. Not to mention Shazam but that's another discussion altogether.
I'm sorry but that's not the case. Marvel's Thor was the Norse god from the beginning. He would only switch places with a mortal (Donald Blake) but when he would turn into Thor he was the mythological deity.
That's not what it means...
My biggest issue with a word like male privilege is IMO their are basically 7 big trigger words that make people almost instantly feel defensive or like they are being personally insulted no matter how much logic is put into a debate or how unconnected they might even be to the issue.
Those words are male,female,white,black, name of country and name of religion. I tend to think less descriptive terms tend to work better at getting people to listen to any argument or position. Systemic racism works better than white racism. Everyone already knows that their are white racist so it's not exactly a revelation and all it does is make people who aren't racist feel like they are being lumped together with the people who are the problem.
Income Inequality and class warfare and the 1% and even the word elite tends to work better IMO. Even a term like "Black Lives Matter" should proably have been "Black Lives ALSO Matter" with Also always being captialized to bring emphasis on how cops have been screwing over black citizen for just about forever, but also making it clear that other lives do matter as well which at the very lest would have stalled the republican counter trick with using a word like "All Lives Matter." Which is a hard thing to argue against because who can say that all lives don't matter? Once you start having to explain the context of your slogan to overly sensitive people it's hard to get much progress in trying to get people to listen to the original message.
Basically the slogans need to be more PC and the debates are when the facts play a more important role in dealing with issues. Plus I think more specific examples should be used in making points. All those cop murders of black citizens caught on phones/cameras says more about the problem than any slogan or fact IMO.
Jason
I don't know about you but personally I prefer to watch Atomic Blonde, La Femme Nikita, Kill Bill, The Long Kiss Goodnight, Alias, Covert Affairs, Point of No Return, Salt, Columbiana, Haywire, Hannah, G.I.Jane, etc., than an actual Jane Bond or Jessy Bourne or Joan Rambo reboot film. 
Original characters are all well and good, but considering these days over 90 percent of everything that gets made is a reboot, rehash or reimagining I think it's an excellent opportunity to correct the historical one-sidedness of roles in popular media.
I wouldn't mind a Jane Bond movie...
I wouldn't mind a Jane Bond movie...
Way to miss my point and go for the nitpicking. It was just a quick googled example but obviously there are others. You mistake me for someone who gives a shit about the details of superhero history.
(Bonus point: Switching identity with the mortal is still not the same as what we have no so the significant change is there.)My point was that origin stories and character change significantly over time. Considering those changes, I don't see how changing gender or ethnicity would constitute an insane and unacceptable change.
What does it matter as long as they are good movies?
I don't know about you but personally I prefer to watch Atomic Blonde, La Femme Nikita, Kill Bill, The Long Kiss Goodnight, Alias, Covert Affairs, Point of No Return, Salt, Columbiana, Haywire, Hannah, G.I.Jane, etc., than an actual Jane Bond or Jessy Bourne or Joan Rambo reboot film.
I don't know about you but personally I don't give a shit as long as the movies are good and we get away from the tired old dominance of white males in all kinds of media.
Bring on a female 007. It's not like James has always been the same person. Else he'd be an alien who never properly aged considering he was active in the 60s. Let's say Bond is just a cover name for the agent who's currently 007.
Having said that, I still want Idris Elba as 007 first!
Way to miss my point and go for the nitpicking. It was just a quick googled example but obviously there are others. You mistake me for someone who gives a shit about the details of superhero history.
It's not my fault your chosen example disproves your point. Maybe your next case in point should be more truthful or better researched? Just sayin'...
It's not my fault your chosen example disproves your point. Maybe your next case in point should be more truthful or better researched? Just sayin'...
It obviously does not disprove my point.
The background story of Thor has significantly changed and so have those of many other superheroes. We all know how much many origins have changed and quite frankly it's a rather absurd derail to discuss the minutiae of that.
Changing ethnicity or gender is just another change that shouldn't be any more controversial especially if it helps to update the superhero landscape in the sense that it becomes more reflective of society and diversity.
It obviously does not disprove my point.
The background story of Thor has significantly changed and so have those of many other superheroes. We all know how much many origins have changed and quite frankly it's a rather absurd derail to discuss the minutiae of that.
Changing ethnicity or gender is just another change that shouldn't be any more controversial especially if it helps to update the superhero landscape in the sense that it becomes more reflective of society and diversity.
These characters are global things now...so whose society are you going to reflect?
Guess I am lucky I mostly read X-Men....never had to worry about diversity there...we had everything. I think Jonathan Starsmore may have actually been a boy from London...and there was Sabra, and Dust, and Gambit covered a couple of nationalities on his own Ina weird way....jubilee of course.....
Maybe all this controversy could have just been avoided if Marvel hadn't been messing up the X-books since the turn of the millennium, and heroes reborn/return had never happened.....in a world with nothing but X books, we would never have this problem.
Trek always remind me of the X-books, right down to their shared values of Russian caricatures. Chekhov and Colussus...separated at birth.
Take your pick. Reflecting the diversity of Western societies would be a good start as least since the movies are still Western products but I'm happy to see more global diversity reflected, too.
Since these are commercial products, what's being reflected is the preference of the audience, and the audience today is very diverse. We're seeing so much more representation for women and different ethnic groups because those members of the audience have a hunger for it and respond eagerly to finally getting that hunger fulfilled. Wonder Woman is DC's biggest movie hit in ages. DC Super Hero Girls is their best-selling new comics title in trade paperback, even outselling Watchmen. And there's intense buzz for the Black Panther movie. You can rarely go wrong by giving an audience something it's craved for a long time but rarely gotten.
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