Got to love the vagueness of it all.
Spoilers AHSOKA series [Spoiler Discussion]
- Thread starter Reverend
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Absolutely correct. By now there's enough data points. Add Andor to that list as well for me. Mando was 50/50. But yeah....very true.
I suppose it does depend on the reaction one gets from these. To use your analogy, if you had a bad experience at a restaurant(got sick, rude staff, etc...) then yeah...why go back for more?
To me it's more along the lines of a bland meal. I'll go again. Maybe a different cook or order a different meal. Maybe it will work this time. For a restaurant it's 2-3 times. That's it. If even.
If it were one ep and out then I wouldn't have enjoyed Prodigy. I quit watching it halfway through the first ep. Some months I decided to power through and well....if it isn't some of the best Trek ever. I'll die on that hill. Same for Firefly.
The issue with streaming series is that I give the series the benefit of the doubt thinking that maybe by the third ep it hits a certain rhythm, it doesn't for me, but by then I'm already basically halfway over the series anyway. I might as well watch the rest.
For Star Wars and Filoni, I am a big fan of Rebels. I think it's some of the best SW content around and I'm one of the folks who saw the originals in the theater way back when. So every time a new SW comes around I'm crossing my fingers for it to be as good as Rebels.
I guess I'm a scifi fan. I want to watch it in hopes that it's something good.
In the end, I curse Dave Wolverton and his introduction of Dathomir and its Rancor-riding witches in The Courtship of Princess Leia. 
SW is space fantasy, but doesn't need the occult, undead, etc. The Force is an energy field, not magic.
SW is space fantasy, but doesn't need the occult, undead, etc. The Force is an energy field, not magic.
That's why it's one episode for me now. No sense in wasting time on it.
Not to be too pedantic, but I am infinitely curious about people's motivations, but are there not better SF shows out there than even the high points of streaming SW (whatever that might be for people)? Are we really missing out on much by now watching this SW show?
I didn't feel like I missed much with Clone Wars, and fans didn't make it sound any better. Anakin uses a lightsaber and commits war crimes. The clones that we like will eventually try to kill the Jedi. Yeah, none of that sounds good.
I mean...it doesn't need anything. But if they can use it in some way that's interesting why not?
Not saying I like it. I find magick to be odd in Star Wars, and the Dark Side sorcerers in the YA books from back when were strange too. But, I don't see it as a bad fit.
As long as we're on the restaurant analogy... there was a local Italian restaurant by my job. I would go once a week and order the exact same dish, by the exact same cook. And he made it completely differently every time! I found it rather strange and a tad frustrating. But it does demonstrate that the same creative people can turn out completely different products.
Kor
Kor
You say that like Lucas didn't put a witch that can turn into a crow into one of the Ewok movies 9 years before that book was published.
Of course there's room in a space fantasy fairy-tale for magic and witches . . . and fairies, and demigods, and Lilliputians right out of Gulliver's Travels, and Ents, and whatever the hell this thing is, and giant moose coral Tom Bombadil, and of course; samurai wizard monks AND ghosts of samurai wizard monks!
Besides "magiks" is just a word for force wielding in a radically different way to how the Jedi approach it. One more primordial and closely tied into nature and life itself.
Don't get me wrong, 'The Courtship of Princess Leia' is a terrible book and I'm thankful that Lucas & Filloni's Nightsisters bares next to no resemblance to those hackneyed leather clad escapees from an Edgar Rice Burroughs novel.
I have to confess I've never seen these, or the holiday special. And based on the things I hear and read, it's doubtless better that way.
Critical appraisal of the quality of the show, not of you.I think you were expecting people to attack you and you reacted. Actually, I agree with many of your points, but not all of them and perhaps not as strongly. I'm pretty much on the fence about Ahsoka - it fell so much short of what it could have been, but it has some potential to be rescued. However, I'm not really bothered if the story doesn't get completed. Discussion of technical prowess of the various actors with non-existent weapons, I'm not prepared to judge and don't really care. I also don't care who Baylan Skoll is looking for - be it Snoke, Palps or Abeloth. I'm not deep into the lore - I just want entertainment.
We are in agreement. Criticizing the show isn't welcome by a large subset of the commenters here. Alas.
I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying the show and I don't attack people personally. I gleefully criticize the show, but that's what a discussion forum is for. Expressing opinions.
And attacking Filoni.
I think I'd rather have watched another season of Rebels or an Ahsoka spin-off cartoon series that told the story. The pacing and writing in Rebels seemed so much better. I expect it would be a lot cheaper to produce as well. The Clone Wars reportedly cost $1M per episode and Rebels perhaps cost a similar amount or maybe less. Making Ahsoka live action at a cost of over $12M per episode seems to subtract from the entertainment value rather than add to it. There'd also be the benefit of each episode being half as long, so we wouldn't have to wait around interminably for something to actually happen.
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Just re-watched the finale and there's an element about Sabine's progress in force use I missed the first time around; during the whole stairwell zombie fight, Sabine stops just tanking hits with the beskar and actually manages to start deflecting them consistantly. I'm not sure she's even fully conscious that she's doing it (which is probably the point) as she just keeps on going like it's the most natural thing ever. I think this is the missing piece that suddenly makes what happens later make more sense for me.
Indeed, if we chart her progress through the whole season there is a very gradual but definite progression: -
Her self doubt is her greatest obstacle and she sees that reflected in Ahsoka's own fears. Once Ahsoka overcomes them and is able to fully commit to her padawan, come what may, Sabine is finally able to trust herself too. I mean look at the difference it makes; when the bandits attack the caravan Ezra says to her "...the force in my ally. That's all I need." and she replies "I'm gonna need more than that."
Fast forward to the fight atop the fortress and it's Sabine's idea for her to use the force to push Ezra across the gap. She's finally overcomes her self-doubts, and trusts her instincts.
So when Yoda says "you must unlearn what you have learned", this is exactly the kind of thing he's talking about. Just as with Luke, Sabine's greatest adversary is herself. It's also why I think there's no "final showdown" with Shin. She was never her true nemesis. Also; revenge is not the Jedi way.
This kind of obstacle is also why the Order preferred to only train those that were too young to have developed any preconceptions, as well as having preternatural talent. I imagine in the beginning the reasoning was sound, but over time it made them dogmatic, complacent, rigid, and arrogant to the point of myopia.
Makes you wonder just how many Sabines did the Jedi Order reject over the centuries? Or overlook entirely? How many potentially great Jedi did they deprive the galaxy of? Perhaps had they been a little less pragmatic and a lot more open minded the Sith would never have been able to rise again to power. Hell, for all we know many of those the Jedi overlooked instead fell into the clutches of the Sith. What if Palpatine had been trained in the temple? Or whoever the hell Plagueis was before his Master recruited him, and so on and so forth?
Of course there's room in a space fantasy fairy-tale for magic and witches . . . and fairies, and demigods, and Lilliputians right out of Gulliver's Travels, and Ents, and whatever the hell this thing is, and giant moose coral Tom Bombadil, and of course; samurai wizard monks AND ghosts of samurai wizard monks!
Besides "magiks" is just a word for force wielding in a radically different way to how the Jedi approach it. One more primordial and closely tied into nature and life itself.
Don't get me wrong, 'The Courtship of Princess Leia' is a terrible book and I'm thankful that Lucas & Filloni's Nightsisters bares next to no resemblance to those hackneyed leather clad escapees from an Edgar Rice Burroughs novel.
Regardless though; the salient point is that Lucas felt a witch (and fairies) were a valid inclusion in a Star Wars story.
Which is the beauty of Star Wars; you can tell almost any kind of story you want in this setting. 'Andor' and 'Ahsoka' are not mutually exclusive, and that's a good thing.
Indeed, if we chart her progress through the whole season there is a very gradual but definite progression: -
- During the zatochi exercise she does seem to sense Ahsoka's presence for a moment and anticipates her blow (before loosing focus and becoming frustrated.)
- When she fights Shin the second time, it's ambiguous as to whether or not she actually did anything or if Shin just flinched.
- When she tries to open the cell door it's possible she was starting to move it without realising before the destroyer showed up and distracted her, and thanks to all the shaking, we the audience can't be sure either way.
- During her search for Ezra, it's not until she stops using the scanner and trusts her instincts and the howlers that the path to Ezra becomes clear (kinda like switching off a targeting computer, no?) Indeed the fight with the bandits that initiates this is a microcosm unto itself; at first she's relying on her armor and gadgets to fight and is getting her arse handed to her . . . until she uses her Jedi training and ends the fight not by killing every last foe, but disarming them.
- When Ahsoka reaches out to her, she senses her presence, demonstrating that there is indeed a bond between them. The only other times we've seen this outside of actual Jedi Master/Padawan bonds is between Luke & Leia, and later Rey & Kylo. So it's significant.
- During the "circle the wagons" fight, she reverts back to Mando-mode again, even trying to hand back Ezra's sabre (need I illustrate the implicit metaphor here?) She's back to blasters, and is clearly fighting with aggression and anger. Her guilt and self-doubt over what it took to get here is clouding her judgment.
- As with the cell door, it's unclear if Sabine was actually able to open the fortress door, but the fact Ahsoka thought they needed her help and that they succeeded feels like an affirmative, if only somewhat ambiguous.
- In the first half of the fight with the Night Troopers, she actually starts deflecting bolts for the first time, but only some. Then as mentioned above; when she abandons her blaster and uses her sabre to save Ezra, she immediately starts blocking 100% of the shots.
- Next up is of course the Undeath Trooper fight, and again she immediately reverts back to her blasters and all but gets throttled for her trouble. And again, it's when she reaches for the sabre, this time through the force that she's finally able to do it at will.
Her self doubt is her greatest obstacle and she sees that reflected in Ahsoka's own fears. Once Ahsoka overcomes them and is able to fully commit to her padawan, come what may, Sabine is finally able to trust herself too. I mean look at the difference it makes; when the bandits attack the caravan Ezra says to her "...the force in my ally. That's all I need." and she replies "I'm gonna need more than that."
Fast forward to the fight atop the fortress and it's Sabine's idea for her to use the force to push Ezra across the gap. She's finally overcomes her self-doubts, and trusts her instincts.
So when Yoda says "you must unlearn what you have learned", this is exactly the kind of thing he's talking about. Just as with Luke, Sabine's greatest adversary is herself. It's also why I think there's no "final showdown" with Shin. She was never her true nemesis. Also; revenge is not the Jedi way.
This kind of obstacle is also why the Order preferred to only train those that were too young to have developed any preconceptions, as well as having preternatural talent. I imagine in the beginning the reasoning was sound, but over time it made them dogmatic, complacent, rigid, and arrogant to the point of myopia.
Makes you wonder just how many Sabines did the Jedi Order reject over the centuries? Or overlook entirely? How many potentially great Jedi did they deprive the galaxy of? Perhaps had they been a little less pragmatic and a lot more open minded the Sith would never have been able to rise again to power. Hell, for all we know many of those the Jedi overlooked instead fell into the clutches of the Sith. What if Palpatine had been trained in the temple? Or whoever the hell Plagueis was before his Master recruited him, and so on and so forth?
You say that like Lucas didn't put a witch that can turn into a crow into one of the Ewok movies 9 years before that book was published.
Of course there's room in a space fantasy fairy-tale for magic and witches . . . and fairies, and demigods, and Lilliputians right out of Gulliver's Travels, and Ents, and whatever the hell this thing is, and giant moose coral Tom Bombadil, and of course; samurai wizard monks AND ghosts of samurai wizard monks!
Besides "magiks" is just a word for force wielding in a radically different way to how the Jedi approach it. One more primordial and closely tied into nature and life itself.
Don't get me wrong, 'The Courtship of Princess Leia' is a terrible book and I'm thankful that Lucas & Filloni's Nightsisters bares next to no resemblance to those hackneyed leather clad escapees from an Edgar Rice Burroughs novel.
I mean I've read worse Star Wars books . . . but not many. Like for real, they have Threepio doing a musical dance number in this thing. It's not pretty, even in print!Don't mince words, Bones, tell us what you really think!
Eh . . . I have a lot of childhood affection for 'Battle of Endor' (didn't get my hands on a copy of 'Caravan of Courage' until the DVD came out), but objectively speaking it's not very good.
Regardless though; the salient point is that Lucas felt a witch (and fairies) were a valid inclusion in a Star Wars story.
Which is the beauty of Star Wars; you can tell almost any kind of story you want in this setting. 'Andor' and 'Ahsoka' are not mutually exclusive, and that's a good thing.
With all due respect, the stated purpose that you have shared is not to enjoy the show but to watch "how low it can go." That's not critical analysis of any stripe but a form of schadenfreude. And then attacking Filoni as often as possible and it looks very petty.
Attacking Filoni is attacking a person, personally.
So, yeah, it's hard to take seriously. And I say that as someone who frequents other boards and see the whole litany of different opinions on Ahsoka, including 'Worst fight scene ever!!!!" and "I really like this show and think it sets the stage for the next phase."
Ahsoka, for me, is right in the middle. It's OK. I love the mythological ideas, and the new galaxy. I don't like Thrawn (but never have) and don't care for the magicks. But that's me. If pacing is a problem, I don't see but then I love "The Ten Commandments" and "Lord of the Rings" as my favorite films of all time. So, I'm probably blind there.
No one is saying that.
It's a call back to Clone Wars where the same thing happened, except with dead nightsister witches, not troopers.
It was way less. Clone Wars was personally funded by George and was produced at a loss by the time it was ended.
Ghosts, OK.
Zombies, nope.
Got it.
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On a tagential line of thought, I'll even argue that when Sabine starts missing her blocks, and Ahsoka tells her to switch to blasters, she's also in tune with the Force, just in a different way. She steps right into formation behind Ahsoka and Ezra without missing a beat, with no sign of discouragement whatsoever. In combat, she has all her Mandalorian training to draw upon, in addition to what Ahsoka and also Kanan have taught her.
Obi-Wan seemed to look down on blasters, regarding them as clumsy and random, but he'd use one in a pinch, as he did on Grievous. Rebels took the blaster to a new level with Ezra's lightsaber-blaster hybrid, especially when wielded by Kanan when he defeated the Grand Inquisitor. Sabine has always been an excellent shot. A Jedi who can wield a lightsaber but is better with blasters would be quite unusual, but not inconsistent. It seems like it could be a thing with Filoni. Maybe it's just that post-Republic Jedi aren't quite so stuffy. Maybe it's just that a good shot like Sabine has abilities that Obi-Wan could never dream of developing.
Zombies, nope.
Got it.
I agree, her deflecting blaster bolts is a big sign that she's starting to click with the Force.
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On a tagential line of thought, I'll even argue that when Sabine starts missing her blocks, and Ahsoka tells her to switch to blasters, she's also in tune with the Force, just in a different way. She steps right into formation behind Ahsoka and Ezra without missing a beat, with no sign of discouragement whatsoever. In combat, she has all her Mandalorian training to draw upon, in addition to what Ahsoka and also Kanan have taught her.
Obi-Wan seemed to look down on blasters, regarding them as clumsy and random, but he'd use one in a pinch, as he did on Grievous. Rebels took the blaster to a new level with Ezra's lightsaber-blaster hybrid, especially when wielded by Kanan when he defeated the Grand Inquisitor. Sabine has always been an excellent shot. A Jedi who can wield a lightsaber but is better with blasters would be quite unusual, but not inconsistent. It seems like it could be a thing with Filoni. Maybe it's just that post-Republic Jedi aren't quite so stuffy. Maybe it's just that a good shot like Sabine has abilities that Obi-Wan could never dream of developing.
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