Spoilers AHSOKA series [Spoiler Discussion]

[Tarek71]

Just as a side: does it irk anyone else that we know where this all ends up? As the scene with the bad guys unlocking the map planet-side unfolded, I thought to myself how much I'd prefer it if everything ahead of this was an open canvas: Post-Empire and an unknown future. No Rey, whiny emo Solo, Palpatine somehow returned and so on locked in.

I still cling to the hope that there is a chance to do what JJ did with Trek, and that is create a new timeline that is also canon, but where events and characters can change. Someone uses the "World btwn Worlds" and changes the flow of events. If ever a new timeline were needed it is here.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, if they do it with the PT, then maybe they can with the ST.

 

[Reverend]

It's funny. I keep hearing people mentioning Ahsoka's theme, I've never quite caught what it was supposed to be. So I went to YouTube and just listened to the theme without any visuals, and now I can't not hear it when I watch the show. I'm actually huming it to myself right now.

If it helps to contextualise, here's a little video of a few key times it's popped up over the years. Though it omits probably my favourite creative use of it, which is in the final sequence of 'Twilight of the Apprentice'.
I remember back when this aired there was a massive debate over whether Ahsoka was alive, or even visible on screen or not (which still seems like a bonkers thing to argue against on the face of it) and here's me like "guys, Kiner is screaming her theme through this whole thing, and it's not a funerial dirge or sentimental farewell. How is this not all about Ahsoka still being alive?"

Speaking of music helping to contextualise story; notice how in Sabine's fight with Saxon that it's not Sabine's theme, that plays at first when she get's back up from being knocked down, but the force theme? Also, listen when she decides not to Anakin Gar Saxon to death and instead says "That might be the Mandalorian way, but it's not my way. Not anymore." Again, it's the force theme playing.
Dave's been working up to her converting to Jedi philosophy for a while, and it's not just this episode and 'Trials of the Darksaber' that made it overt. It goes back to at least 'The Protectors of Concord Dawn'.

For me the final clincher was the convors in TotDS; while Ezra is training with Sabine there's a pair of them watching on, perched on some coral . . . then a third swoops into frame and sits by them. Filloni has used these birds as a metaphor to signal to the audience what's going on since the 'Padawan Lost' arc in Clone Wars.

In all this, I think some fans either forget, or don't understand that force sensitivity isn't meant to be a super-power of a select few; it's a spectrum that everyone is on. The force exists within and is created by all living things, and everyone (with cellular biology) has midichlorians to commune with it. Being strong in the force and having a high M-count is just like having a natural talent for something, but talent alone only gets you so far without discipline and perseverance. Which conversely is also how one can overcome a lack of natural talent. There's plenty of highly skilled people out there that were useless in their chosen vocation until they worked their arse off to get better, just as there's plenty of natural prodigies that either never fully applied themselves, or took their talent for granted and were overtaken by those who were far more motivated.

Moreover; using the force isn't what defines a Jedi. It is after all a religion, so what matters isn't whether you can float rocks with your brain, it's about philosophy. How to live your life. How to be a good person. In that, Sabine has more of an advantage that I think she even realises because at her core, she's a deeply selfless person and that is a hallmark of Jedi philosophy. Remember as a cadet she sacrificed everything for her family, her people, and for Mandalore to correct her own mistake. A more selfish person wouldn't have done that.

 

[Set Harth]

I remember back when this aired there was a massive debate over whether Ahsoka was alive, or even visible on screen or not (which still seems like a bonkers thing to argue against on the face of it) and here's me like "guys, Kiner is screaming her theme through this whole thing, and it's not a funerial dirge or sentimental farewell. How is this not all about Ahsoka still being alive?"

It's because Filoni gaslit us.

 

[DigificWriter]

using the force isn't what defines a Jedi

Exactly. The Jedi Order is/was a religious order, so the question of whether or not Sabine is Force-sensitive is irrelevant when it comes to Ahsoka agreeing to train her, her level of skill with a lightsaber, her ability to build a lightsaber of her own if/when she and Ahsoka find Ezra, or her ability/willingness to commit to the tenets and philosophies by which the Jedi abide, all of which are criticisms I've seen/heard bandied about for why it doesn't make sense that she and Ahsoka have a lapsed Master-Padawan relationship in the show.

Shifting topics, I have to admit that I've previously been too quick to judge people for railing against retcons and their effect on continuity, because I've found myself struggling to square the differences between Sabine and Ahsoka's scene in the Rebels epilogue with the recreation of that scene in Ahsoka.

 

[fireproof78]

Reconciling inconsistencies is simply not taking on screen as strict, literal, truth, but someone's retelling of moments in their story, with the biases and anomalies that recollection brings.

 

[Set Harth]

Exactly. The Jedi Order is/was a religious order, so the question of whether or not Sabine is Force-sensitive is irrelevant when it comes to Ahsoka agreeing to train her, her level of skill with a lightsaber, her ability to build a lightsaber of her own if/when she and Ahsoka find Ezra, or her ability/willingness to commit to the tenets and philosophies by which the Jedi abide, all of which are criticisms I've seen/heard bandied about for why it doesn't make sense that she and Ahsoka have a lapsed Master-Padawan relationship in the show.

Traditionally building a lightsaber has been seen as a use of Force sensitivity.

 

[Reverend]

The only meaningful difference between the two versions of that scene is context. The "coda" version is just that, a coda. A brief summery and culmination of the events following their victory over Thrawn, before setting off on a new quest to finally bring Ezra home. Critically, it shows that both Sabine and Ahsoka are changed from what they once were, and are moving forward together. Codas by their very nature don't have the luxury of going into exhausted detail, and are by their very nature merely a depiction made in broad strokes.

The live action version is a more transformative moment. It's about forgiveness. Acceptance. About embracing destiny. It doesn't matter that Ahsoka isn't wearing white robes and carrying a staff because that's still where she's headed; Ahsoka as she should have been.

They're both the same moment, just viewed through a different lens (figuratively and literally) and that's just how storytelling works. Context is everything. Indeed my favourite quote that illustrates this quite nicely is from Terry Pratchett's 'Thief of Time' :-

“Supposing an emperor was persuaded to wear a new suit of clothes whose material was so fine that, to the common eye, the clothes weren't there. And suppose a little boy pointed out this fact in a loud, clear voice...
Then you have The Story of the Emperor Who Had No Clothes.
But if you knew a bit more, it would be The Story of the Boy Who Got a Well-Deserved Thrashing from His Dad for Being Rude to Royalty, and Was Locked Up.
Or The Story of the Whole Crowd Who Were Rounded Up by the Guards and Told 'This Didn't Happen, OK? Does Anyone Want to Argue?'
Or it could be a story of how a whole kingdom suddenly saw the benefit of the 'new clothes', and developed an enthusiasm for healthy sports in a lively and refreshing atmosphere which got many new adherents every year, and led to a recession caused by the collapse of the conventional clothing industry.
It could even be a story about The Great Pneumonia Epidemic of '09.
It all depends on how much you know.”

​

So no, I don't really class this as a retcon, it's just a new perspective on the same event. Objectively speaking, the same events happened. Nothing has been changed. For me a retcon needs to have fundamentally altered the narrative (which is also why I don't class the '97 SE et al. changes as retcons either.)

 

[Tuskin38]

I still cling to the hope that there is a chance to do what JJ did with Trek

Not happening.

Even brought up in the original WBW episode.

 

[Gaith]

Unfortunately, the Book of Boba Fett (stupidly!) tells us that Luke is perfectly fine recreating the mistakes of the old order, even though his actions specifically refuted their stupid dogma.

I blame Favreau entirely for that mind-bendingly moronic choice.

I don't like the choice either, but as I recall, TLJ seemed to make it pretty clear clear that Luke had done his best to pick up where the old order left off, what with his yelping about the "sacred texts," and speaking as though his failed Jedi order was continuous with the pre-Imperial one. (Though Johnson also couldn't help suggesting that Luke hadn't even read the texts, so exactly how he would have learned about the dogmas he apparently perpetuated is unclear.)

So, if anyone's to blame for all that, it's Kennedy and Johnson, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Abrams for nudging them to that point. Favreau's just following their lead.

 

[Tuskin38]

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[Tuskin38]

So, if anyone's to blame for all that, it's Kennedy

She didn't write any of the story, why would you blame her?

 

[DigificWriter]

Traditionally building a lightsaber has been seen as a use of Force sensitivity.

Acquiring a Kyber Crystal is an act of utilizing Force-sensitivity; if you've already got a crystal, constructing the saber itself is something that anybody can do.

And even if Sabine can't find a crystal to make her own saber, there's nothing precluding her from still following the tenets of the Jedi and from having a Master-Padawan relationship with Ahsoka.

 

[Gaith]

She didn't write any of the story, why would you blame her?

Because she hired Johnson, approved his script, and produced the movie?

 

[fireproof78]

so exactly how he would have learned about the dogmas he apparently perpetuated is unclear.)

From his masters, clearly. Despite his desire to move past what they were pushing him to do, Luke still took many of the lessons from Obi-Wan and Yoda to heart and replicated what he had learned.

 

[Ithekro]

They also happen to have THE expert on lightsabers with them in the form of a thousands of years old droid.

 

[Set Harth]

From his masters, clearly. Despite his desire to move past what they were pushing him to do, Luke still took many of the lessons from Obi-Wan and Yoda to heart and replicated what he had learned.

And the movie doesn't say he didn't read the texts, just that they weren't exciting reads.

 

[Reverend]

From his masters, clearly. Despite his desire to move past what they were pushing him to do, Luke still took many of the lessons from Obi-Wan and Yoda to heart and replicated what he had learned.

I think an aspect of that movie people either miss, or refuse to comprehend is that Luke is deeply conflicted about the Jedi. He's probably donned those ceremonial robes and been standing there with a lit torch a dozen times over, only to be unable to follow-through. Indeed, that's probably what he was doing up on the cliff in those robes before Rey showed up. There mere fact he still has the robes and treats them with clear reverence when he changes out of them shows how he really feels about the Jedi, or at least the Jedi ideals. Luke's whole arc in that movie is a crisis of faith, but not in the force or the Jedi (not really), but in himself.

When he rants at Rey about the failings of the Order of old, and saying why it must end, he's not even talking to Rey; he's arguing with himself. If he truly held half of the the convictions he claimed to then he'd have gotten it over with years ago; burned those old tomes to ash, disappeared into the galaxy, and not looked back. It's all really about his own guilt over his perceived failure, and fighting with his own sense of worthiness. He's blaming the Jedi for being part of the problem, but it's himself he really blames.

The Jedi Order had it's problems near the end, but it wasn't the philosophy that was the cause, it was the dogmatic application of it. They became remote. Cold. Rigid. Cut-off. Tied to the interests of institution rather than the very people they were supposed to serve. In short it fell victim to the same entropy that befalls most institutions if they exist long enough. To paraphrase Frank Herbert: to begin to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class, and in the continued existence of the institution itself over and above the very purpose it was created to fulfil.
The fall of the Jedi wasn't because of the admonition of attachments (seriously, anyone that thinks that clearly wasn't paying attention to Anakin's story) or because they should have used the Dark Side too, or any similarly asinine claims. It was because of institutional arrogance and complacency. Yoda even called it out himself in AotC, he just didn't fathom the depth of the problem until it was too late.

 

[fireproof78]

The ROTS novel spells it out far better than the film.

 

[Reverend]

The ROTS novel spells it out far better than the film.

Eh. There's several elements of the way that novel interprets certain things that I just can't get behind, so I really don't rate it as highly as some seem to. Plus that's a whole other discussion.