Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by OCD Geek, Jul 18, 2018.
And Malick’s branch that were into their freaky cult around Hive.
Making Hydra in to substitute Nazis was a dumb move, especially since there were perfectly good Nazi Nazis available. I liked Hydra better when they were SPECTRE wannabes.
I don't know. I really loved the first Captain America movie which is still one of the top 5 or 10 MCU movies. I feel like the show has been able to use that backstory well. It is kind of interesting seeing someone like Whitehall on the show and then you go to Garret and Ward basically making fun of people for doing the salutes. It adds a kind of intrigue were you got all these players with different agenda's all working together but the end result isn't so much political but tons of personal agenda's above all else.
It worked in the context of the first Captain America movie, but I'm glad that the show has expanded Hydra's mandate beyond fascism.
Why? Hydra are the bad guys. What's wrong with them being fascists?
It's a little one-note. More interesting to have conflicting agenda's at play. The idea like in the commercial where you have to save HYDRA is preserve the timeline is perfect time travel angst. For the greater good you have to protect a great evil and all the hang wringing that comes with those shades of grey idea's. Then you toss in the idea some of HYDRA might not be so bad and then some have side agenda's going on and you can create all sorts of complications for the hero's.
Well at least they weren’t Nihilist.
There are many "histories" of Hydra on the web. Being in league with the Nazis was only a small portion its long history. Here's one I recently watched which was nicely done:
Isn't that a fairly recent retcon, though? For most of its history in the comics, it was led by Baron von Strucker and the Red Skull. I think it's only in the past decade or so that it's had that "long history" stretching back to antiquity retroactively added, no doubt as an attempt to distance it from its traditional Nazi connections because it's hard to market Nazi-related material as toys and memorabilia, even when it's the bad guys.
Yes, a retcon, but the thread is about Marvel's Agents of SHIELD TV Series and not about the Marvel comics which retconned HYDRA to exist during WWII.
Yes, and Agents of SHIELD had Daisy state emphatically that, hell, yes, Hydra agents like Ward are Nazis, no matter how much they try to deny it. So it's disingenuous to embrace the very same Nazi denialism that AoS's writers made a point of emphatically denouncing and try to use AoS itself as your justification.
HYDRA's history in comics does (did?) stretch back to WWII. Strucker took over the organization that would become HYDRA towards the end of the war when he was on the run from the Red Skull after falling out of favor with Hitler. The Skull's connection to HYDRA is a relatively recent one. Though in the 70s (IRL) he took over a faction based in Las Vegas.(In some of the first Cap comics I bought). He was usually shown to have his own organization seperate and in competition with HYDRA.
The point of my post was indicate that HYDRA was not part of the Nazis or WWII when it was first introduced in Strange Tales #135, but rather it was headed by Arnold Brown, and not Strucker. Retconning later attached HYDRA to the Nazis and Strucker, which I thought was good retconning.
IIRC I think at least part of it had to do with being able to market the movie in Germany, which as one might imagine has very strict laws that prohibit the display of Nazi imagery in general and the swastika in particular.
You also get a little more creative freedom; both from getting to say "look, they're so evil even the Nazis kicked them out!", and just from having both the villains & heroes be adjacent to real historical events and organisations, but not directly *in* them. I mean, does anyone complain the the SSR wasn't a real thing in WWII, or that SHIELD wasn't really fighting a communist super spy agency, and never intercepted a rogue nuclear missile launched by Soviet separatists?
One way to look at is when we think of Nazi's I think we know their main agenda was racial purity. This is were the unknown is involved because with people like Garret and Ward you don't really see them as racist who want a world filled with blond haired and blue eyed white people. Their goals have nothing in common with what we see as the most common goal of the Nazi party. Ward's main agenda in life seemed to be wanting revenge against his family, a strong loyalty to Garret for helping make him strong and later romantic feelings for Daisy.
I think a more accurate description for some people in Hydra is Nazi collaborators. They were willing to work with people like Reinhardt in order to follow their own specific goals. I'm sure in their minds they weren't working for Hydra but using Hydra and the loyalty ended as soon as they stopped being useful. Ward for example showed all sorts of shifting loyalties on the show. Who knows what Garret would have done if he hadn't been killed after getting that Deadlock style hardware.
Well, like the old joke goes, what do you call a Nazi who only got into it because they offered him something?
Daisy was a child.
Her understanding on WWII probably comes from Saving Private Ryan, Pearl Harbour and Inglorious Basterds. Mine comes from Hogans Heroes, but I am a lot older than she is.
Hydra had had 55 years to sanitize itself, since it was profitable to stick around, but unprofitable to stay linked to it's roots.
I remember a comic from way back were Strucker was arguing that Adolf was an inbred short moron, and the Red Skull was disagreeing, still believing that Hitler was Christ but with a better wardrobe.
Their agenda was power. Racism was a convenient tool for them to manipulate the masses into giving them power, just as it always has been throughout history. And the fact that Hydra was perfectly happy to work hand-in-hand with Hitler and help him pursue racial genocide makes them no different.
WHICH IS JUST AS BAD!!!!!! There is NO acceptable amount of collaboration with Nazis. It is horrifically offensive that you're trying to split hairs about this. This isn't some mere fictional abstraction. If you defend fictional Nazi sympathizers, you're effectively defending real ones, giving them cover for their attempts to mask their hate as something more acceptable.
I don't agree that the Nazi party's goal was power in and of itself. I think the racial aspects were both integral and sincere. That's certainly not a defense and almost feels worse, imo. This is distinct from Mussolini's Fascist party, which I do think existed for Mussolini's own power and was flexible on ideology.
I didn't mean to say they weren't sincerely racist, I meant that their highest goal was power and their racism proved an effective way to pursue it. And the point is that anyone who willingly works with Nazis, who's okay with their racism and genocide and everything else, CANNOT in any way be defended as better than the Nazis. If you tolerate their hate, you're part of their hate.
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