I stopped a long time ago. There's literally no point in engaging with someone who speaks in such hyperbole and with such a closed mind. There are better things to do in life.
Agents of SHIELD: Season 6
- Thread starter OCD Geek
- Start date
Thanks, that's what it sounded like to me, but I wanted to be sure.
Ah, the pedantic "Hydra aren't Nazi's". Yes, they are, in both the comics and MCU, and in Agents of sHIELD most of the cast became HYDRA aka Nazi's. You can blame it on the Fake Matrix, but that doesn't change the fact that fucking Phil Coulson and most of the rest of the cast (at least the Caucasian cast, I don't think even AoS, as shitty as it got, tried to make Daisy, May or what's his face into non-White Nazi's) were basically Nazis for a half a season. AoS was being run by Marvel TV, which was itself at the time being run by hardcore Right Wing nutjob Ike Perlmutter who was also running Marvel Comics, which is why heroes became Nazis in both the comics and on TV around the same time.
Honestly, people that deny it happened make me think that they just don't consider the change to be a big deal, which is...worrying, but unfortunately common (at least in the US right now). In general, it might be time to give the AoS fanatic stuff a rest when you start defending heroes becoming Nazi's.
So, what you're saying is to be "open minded" you have to support (or at least tolerate) Nazi stuff, otherwise you have a "closed mind"? Well, that is certainly what large parts of the American South believe, I'll give you that...
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This is a spurious and disingenuous distinction. If you willingly work with Nazis, if you incorporate Nazis into your group, you're Nazis. You can't mix poison into wine and claim the wine isn't "technically" poisoned.
And the thing about Hydra is that it's not one organization but many. Yes, the ancient Hydra led by Malick that AoS later retconned into existence is older than the Nazis, but the specific branch of Hydra featured in the MCU movies and the first few AoS seasons, the branch that began with the Red Skull and Zola and included members like von Strucker, List, Pierce, Rumlow, Sitwell, Garrett, Ward, etc., absolutely was an offshoot of the Nazis.
I think Hydra is split during Agents of Shield time. You have some who are connected to the Nazi way of thinking but for people like Garrett and Ward they didn't care about that stuff. I think the point of Hydra is they adapt to any surroundings and find people in those surroundings to carry on the cause whether it be a Nazi officer or American military person.
Jason
Jason
You've got a good point there.
I don't buy that excuse any more than Daisy did. Whether they actively embraced the ideology or not, they willingly signed on with a Nazi-adjacent organization, proving that they didn't reject the ideology, which is effectively as bad.
What matters is not what you believe or how you rationalize your choices. What matters is whether your choices hurt other people. If they do, then the excuses you make are irrelevant. Morality is about consequences, not intentions. It's about what happens to others, not whether people approve of you.
It's like how whenever someone says "I'm not a racist, but...", it's a given they're about to say something racist or apologetic toward racism. The very fact that they feel the need to offer the defense shows that they're guilty of something that warrants the accusation. And that they care more about how others perceive them than they do about whether their actions hurt others.
Again, Hydra is not one organization. That concept is built into the name -- the many-headed dragon, each head existing independently so the loss of one will not affect the others. As I said, the incarnation of Hydra that we followed in the movies and the first few AoS seasons was affiliated with the Nazis, descended from them, complicit in their atrocities, no matter how much it pretended to be divorced from them. All the Hydra characters we saw prior to Gideon Malick's group were direct descendants of the Red Skull's Hydra, Arnim Zola's Hydra. And both of them were Nazis.
In theory though it means America would have been part of the Nazi party when we used some of their scientist in the space race. What happened is I think when the Nazi's were defeated and Red Skull was defeated they had no choice but to transition but since the people left to do it was Nazi's it still has that Nazi element connected to it even as it grows away from it. In time the old guard would have died off and their dreams of Hyda would have given way to new people with their own agenda's. What we see in the show is Hydra still in mid transition and also exposed in away that really screwed up their plans when people found out how much control they had over "S.H.I.E.L.D.
Jason
Totally different. Again, the branch of Hydra we're talking about was founded by Nazis. It was part of the Nazis until the Red Skull split it off. It wasn't a separate organization that merely recruited the occasional German scientist.
And I have to say it -- It's "the Nazis," not "the Nazi's." Apostrophes are for possessives, not plurals.
Honestly, I'm still just trying to get past the part where someone thinks a superhero story is a tacit endorsement of fascism, but it's the one where fascism has taken over in an evil alternate universe, fascism is presented as alien, sinister, and scary, and is ultimately defeated by a diverse team which includes people the fascist universe brainwashed into being dupes, sympathizers, and full-on participants in fascism, who were won back over to the side of freedom and democracy by reasoned, empathetic discussion.
I mean, there's a multi-movie storyline that relies on the fact that the blonde white man's moral superiority means we're all better off if he's unconstrained by law, because laws can be corrupted by venial elected politicians and personal passions, but the conscience of one good man can always be trusted. But, no, the story that's propagandizing for fascism is the one where the Nazi scientist tortures his girlfriend so he can live up to the expectations of his Nazi dad. That's the kind of storyline that makes dictatorship seem appealing.
I mean, there's a multi-movie storyline that relies on the fact that the blonde white man's moral superiority means we're all better off if he's unconstrained by law, because laws can be corrupted by venial elected politicians and personal passions, but the conscience of one good man can always be trusted. But, no, the story that's propagandizing for fascism is the one where the Nazi scientist tortures his girlfriend so he can live up to the expectations of his Nazi dad. That's the kind of storyline that makes dictatorship seem appealing.
No, the point is that all the main characters being briefly brainwashed by a power-hungry AI into becoming neo-Nazis within a computer simulation is not honestly summarized by "they became pretty much literally Nazis." You're free to dislike that plotline, but you're not entitled to going unchallenged for being hyperbolic.
We've seen that opening scene before, but that trailer is new (aside from that bit with Coulson and Daisy).
I can't wait!
I can't wait!
Feels like it’s months away...
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