Agents of Shield - Season 4
- Thread starter MarsWeeps
- Start date
I don't see how that's sad. I see it as realistic. There's this pervasive myth in fiction that science is some rigid, inflexible belief system that's completely closed to ideas outside its limits, but that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. Science is the only system of thought that's specifically designed to push beyond its own limits and question its own conclusions, to continue expanding its understanding based on the evidence. Over a century ago, when quantum physics was first proposed, it sounded bizarre and fanciful and completely outside the bounds of known physics. But since it was a real part of the universe, the evidence confirmed that it was true, and so science expanded its limits to encompass it, and now quantum theory is the foundation of modern physics and a lot of applied technology, including the computer I'm writing this on. That's why science is such a beautiful thing -- because it has the humility to admit it doesn't know everything, and that gives it the freedom to keep learning more endlessly. If something is real, science will eventually confirm its reality.
So in a universe where magic existed, magic would simply be part of the overall workings of the universe, and therefore science could eventually verify its existence and expand to encompass and codify it, because that is what science is for. It would make no more sense to treat magic as separate from the physics of that universe than it does to treat quantum physics as separate from the physics of our universe. There may be a division between what we already know and what we don't know yet, but that division is arbitrary; as far as the universe is concerned, it's all part of the same whole.
Sooo....anyone still want to claim that magic in the MCU isn't just *really* advanced science? Anybody? No? Didn't think so. 
And yeah, it's easy to miss but that portal has the same rotating sparky effect as the sling ring portals. I thought that was a neat touch and doubles as a way to show just how complicated a relic those rings are if it takes all of that advanced bleeding edge technology just to make a much more limited, inferior version.
In the comic lore the Book of Cagliostro contains passages transcribed from the Darkhold since the latter is supposedly the source of *all* dark magic in this universe. So those books in the Ancient One's collection were made later.
And yeah, it's easy to miss but that portal has the same rotating sparky effect as the sling ring portals. I thought that was a neat touch and doubles as a way to show just how complicated a relic those rings are if it takes all of that advanced bleeding edge technology just to make a much more limited, inferior version.
That may still be the case since all similar binding would suggest is that it was made by the same person that made those other books.
In the comic lore the Book of Cagliostro contains passages transcribed from the Darkhold since the latter is supposedly the source of *all* dark magic in this universe. So those books in the Ancient One's collection were made later.
Last edited:
I'm not sure that's the case. I think it's more that the SHIELD agents, as characters, still can't quite bring themselves to think of magic as magic, so they try to frame it in terms that are more comfortable to them.
I mean, of course, a technologically-minded guy like Fitz is going trying to interpret these events in terms of cutting-edge physics and energy discharges and interdimensional vortexes and such. It would be out of character of him to start talking about deals with the devil or damned souls being sucked down to Hell. That's not part of his worldview.
And the same applies to the other agents, to varying degrees. They're used to weird science and aliens and exotic bio-weapons and so on. They're very much out of their element here. .
I mean, they all assumed that Ghost Rider was an Inhuman at first.
But the Ancient One said in Doctor Strange that it was just two different ways of talking and thinking about the same thing. It's all about harnessing the energies of the multiverse in order to achieve a desired physical effect. It's like what Thor said to Jane -- "The ancients called it magic, you call it science. I come from a place where they're one and the same."
Again, science is just the process by which we learn about the universe. It's not about technology per se, it's a way of thinking about the universe, a process whereby we learn new things by asking questions, gathering data, formulating models that make predictions we can test by gathering more data, and improving or abandoning those models based on the results. It's not limited in what sorts of things it applies to. It's a way of thinking and learning about everything there is, especially the stuff it doesn't already include. The only reason we see science and magic as mutually incompatible ideas is because, in our universe, magic doesn't actually exist, and science is about what is demonstrably real. So in a universe where magic actually were real, there's no reason there couldn't be a science of magic.
"The Next Phase" and I immediately thought that episode when May walked through Coulson.
Nice catches. I thought the gateway Aida built looked familiar and now I know why. Honestly, I prefer subtle connections to Dr. Strange (and by further extension, Thor) than outright story connections. The are more ways for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to be influenced by the films than plot and I hope we see more of those kind of influences in the future.
Even they weren't all made by the same person, who's to say that the Ancient One didn't previously have Darkhold in her collection at some point. Still, the binding is similar and the overall aesthetic did look it could have come from her library.
The big difference between science and magic in shows like this is that while science can attempt to explain the effect, it can rarely if ever explain cause. And no matter how well they can explain the effect, all it takes for magic to create the effect is some handwaving, a few magic words, a couple of sigils, and most importantly sheer willpower.
Sure, sometimes (like in Agens of SHIELD), those components take the form of nonsensical technology, but in the end it's really the same thing as having a spellbook, sigils, or drawing a magic circle. The tools are just updated to what's acceptable to modern sensibilities rather than primitive ones.
So yeah, while Fitz can explain how they were out of phase and being dragged to another dimension (aka Hell), there was nothing he could do about it even if he had all of his equipment. It took magic (namely a spell from the Darkhold) to fix the problem, manifested in the form of some junk technology that without the magic is just that -- junk.
Sure, sometimes (like in Agens of SHIELD), those components take the form of nonsensical technology, but in the end it's really the same thing as having a spellbook, sigils, or drawing a magic circle. The tools are just updated to what's acceptable to modern sensibilities rather than primitive ones.
So yeah, while Fitz can explain how they were out of phase and being dragged to another dimension (aka Hell), there was nothing he could do about it even if he had all of his equipment. It took magic (namely a spell from the Darkhold) to fix the problem, manifested in the form of some junk technology that without the magic is just that -- junk.
Loved that Ada's language appeared as binary code. Nice continuity with the flashback in the earlier episode where it showed it's contents as English or German.
That it reacts to Ada as an entity is interesting in and of itself.
What is she doing now?
Is she manipulating her own simulated brain with her newfound abilities?
That it reacts to Ada as an entity is interesting in and of itself.
What is she doing now?
Is she manipulating her own simulated brain with her newfound abilities?
Hmm... Given that the MCU portrays magic as being linked to the metacosmic forces harnessed by advanced beings like Asgardians and whoever created the Infinity Stones, there are two possible directions for such an interaction between AI and metaphysics:
1) Ultron.
2) The Vision.
However... Ultron was the spawn of code that was pretty much taken directly out of Loki's scepter, which had been given him by Thanos's lieutenant, so it's safe to say that it had never been used for anything good. And Ultron turned out bad. The Vision, on the other hand, is an outgrowth of the fusion of the Infinity Stone from the scepter with Tony Stark's JARVIS AI, along with some bits of Ultron's code. And the Vision has, mostly, turned out good. Which suggests that whether the entity in question turns out good or evil may be a function of what its prior inclination already was before it gained the power. And AIDA, like JARVIS, was created to be helpful -- more, to be self-sacrificing on others' behalf. So I don't see this turning her evil.
Well, fantasy does what it does, but I've never liked the idea of "evil" as an external force that makes people do bad things regardless of their intrinsic nature. I see that as just an excuse to duck responsibility. To me, good and evil are choices people make. Power is neutral; whether it's used to do good or harm depends on the intentions, ability, and character of the wielder.
If AIDA's entire reason for being, the way she's been designed to think and behave, is to protect others through her own self-abnegation or self-sacrifice, I'd call that a pretty good simulation of pure selfless good. That would be a pretty effective safeguard agaisnt corruption. True, there have been plenty of stories about AIs "protecting" humanity in ways that became oppressive, going back to things like Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands..." and "I, Mudd" and Colossus: The Forbin Project. But AIDA is specifically made to protect people by taking risks onto herself, rather than by regulating others. So I think she isn't the kind of AI that would be good raw material for an evil robot overlord.
There will still be lots of "Ultron" drama when she gains too much autonomy and her own free will. In the sense, that people will freak out about her just like they did about inhumans. And just wait, till she starts to create more of herself.
No doubt, but that doesn't mean they'll be right about her.
Poor Mac. Getting possessed by aliens, then demons.
No wonder he is pissed.
No wonder he is pissed.
In real life maybe, but in horror and fantasy, which is where GHOST RIDER come from . . . yeah, Evil is a thing. Think of it as a convention of the genre.
A Lovecraftian Elder God is not just a tentacled alien life-form. It's an unspeakable horror out of time and space. And the Darkhold is not just a morally-neutral instruction manual.
So this may be less about corrupted programming and more like demonic possession, albeit of android. Which, when I think of it, is a fairly fresh idea that I can't immediately recall encountering before . . . .
Last edited:
Sure... but even in fantasy, the corruption of evil can be resisted or conquered by a sufficiently pure soul. That's what I'm saying about Aida. She might just be the most selfless, pure, innocent entity on Earth. Could evil get a foothold in her to begin with? If evil is a force, then so is good, and what is more good than having the fundamental instinct to place the well-being of others above your own?
There's a scene in an old issue of The Avengers where Wanda forcibly stops Hank McCoy from reading the book, simply because certain passages were designed in such a way that simply reading them would capture your soul.
The closest I can remember it the Buffy episode I Robot, You Jane. A demon in the internet has a robotic body built for him to possess.
Similar threads
