Agents of Shield - Season 4

[Christopher]

You were asking why NPC Hydra agents didn't track their stolen car. With only Agnus, Radcliffe, Mace, May, Coulson, Mac and Leopold playing then once contact from the Coulson story ran it's course why continue?

The Framework isn't a game, it's a simulation. It's the entire world recreated in detail, with a few alterations to its history but otherwise functioning as if it were the physically real world. That's what simulations are -- models of how a real phenomenon would unfold given a set of initial conditions. Radcliffe wanted the Framework to be such a perfect emulation of reality that it could literally take the place of reality and allow everyone, the entire human race, to live out full and happy lives within it. So it's not as limited and artificial as a game. It's more like the ultimate open-world environment, like Second Life or whatever, where the goal is simply to live life, and the world unfolds organically rather than based on some specific script.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You were asking why NPC Hydra agents didn't track their stolen car. With only Agnus, Radcliffe, Mace, May, Coulson, Mac and Leopold playing then once contact from the Coulson story ran it's course why continue?

@Christopher just basically made my point. If it's really a simulation with real-world complexity and fidelity, then HYDRA would have tracked down the stolen car as a matter of course. If the car had GPS, how simple that would have been. This was an opportunity for Simmons to have recognized Fitz's hand in HYDRA's technology, say as she disabled or attempted to disable the car's security features. There was no indication that anything like that occurred. And even if there hadn't been a dedicated GPS device or Simmons had managed to disable it, the car's computer was still connected to the HYDRA network, which would have entailed some capability to geolocate the terminal's transceiver. Plus, given that she entered a query for Coulson's address from the stolen car, one has to wonder why HYDRA agents didn't pick her up at the school. Again, nothing we could see indicated in the slightest that Simmons was executing any countermeasures, but rather that she was just taking the safety of using the computer for granted.

Or, alternately, the complexity of the Framework's simulation in fact falls far short of the real world's, and possibly things taking place without direct involvement of the "players" don't have as much fidelity. But. my goodness, the simulated person who picked up Simmons in her car seemed quite lifelike.

And how lucky for Simmons that she had been buried in a shallow grave.

 

[UssGlenn]

Simmons' plotline works if the Hydra agents are knocked out for an extended period of time. As long as they don't report the car missing until after Simmons leaves the school (in a different car) she's in good shape.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The HYDRA agents were knocked out in a public establishment in front of witnesses. I'm having a hard time imagining that somebody wouldn't call HYDRA about the knocked out agents pronto and that HYDRA would at least get a description of the assailant.

Again, this is assuming that the simulation in the Framework actually has real-world complexity and fidelity.

 

[LJones41]

Why did HYDRA focused most of its infiltration on SHIELD? Why not the other intelligence services like the CIA and the NSA? The organization had a mole in the Senate. Just one?

 

[Christopher]

Why did HYDRA focused most of its infiltration on SHIELD? Why not the other intelligence services like the CIA and the NSA? The organization had a mole in the Senate. Just one?

The Hydra infiltration of SHIELD started when the SSR recruited Arnim Zola as an asset through Operation Paperclip (the real-world post-WWII project that recruited German scientists before the Soviets could get them). So Hydra effectively had a mole within SHIELD from the moment of its founding. They probably didn't have the same level of access into other agencies, not for as long a period, at least.

 

[Star Wolf]

Why did HYDRA focused most of its infiltration on SHIELD? Why not the other intelligence services like the CIA and the NSA? The organization had a mole in the Senate. Just one?

Perhaps because SHIELD like Hydra put global concerns over local ones. While a CIA recruit might think if America is great the rest of the world would get better the mindset remains the locals first.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I don't know, maybe it was just me, but I wasn't feeling this episode. I get that there was going to be a certain amount of awkwardness for Daisy and Jemma to adjust to this new world, a world they didn't expect, but the whole thing felt clumsy and not engaging. I did like the twist at the end with Ward being a mole in HYDRA as a reflection to role in real life. If it's genuine, that'll at least make having Ward tolerable.

Nice to see references to Felix Blake (good to see the show hasn't entirely forgotten about him) and Alexander Pierce, and I'm relieved Lincoln is dead so we don't have to worry about him reappearing. I hope now the new conceit has been established, the following episodes we bring back other familiar faces (Bobbi, Lance, Mike Peterson, etc.). Hell, we didn't even see Mack or Radcliffe in this episode.

Until Coulson's sudden recollection at the very end, I expected the show to go with the LOST route in showing how each character remembers their past life. Who knows, maybe we'll still get that.

One has to wonder about the larger implications of the MCU. Did 'The Incident' still occur? Was the Avengers Initiative still a thing? Is Rogers still on ice? I assume Project Insight went off without a hitch, so Fury, Stark, Strange and Banner etc. are probably all dead.

Coulson refers to "The Incident" during his lesson just before he was interrupted by the HYDRA agents, so something clearly happened. However, it may have played out differently if the Avengers doen't exist and Steve Rogers isn't even awake from the ice.

 

[Christopher]

Coulson refers to "The Incident" during his lesson just before he was interrupted by the HYDRA agents, so something clearly happened.

No, he was referring to the Cambridge Incident, which in this continuity happened in 2008 after May brought Katya Belyakov back alive from Bahrain instead of killing her, which led to her powers running amok in Cambridge and killing a lot of people there.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Oh, yeah, you're right. I guess the "Cambridge Incident" didn't sink into my head at that moment, so when I heard "Incident" on its own, I immediately assumed Battle of New York.

 

[kitik]

I think something else may have been going on here. Aida did not show Fitz the picture of Simmons at the end. But was that because she was afraid of Fitz remembering her (as we're probably intended to assume) or was she doing that to protect Simmons (and Daisy) from Hydra?

Remember, she was well aware of Simmon's presence, so she disabled their escape mechanism. Which means she was also well aware of Daisy's presence. Which means she was well aware that Daisy was strolling around the Triskellion, and Aida allowed her free reign.

Aida knows exactly what Simmons and Daisy are up to, and she's basically not only allowing them free reign, but I think she's assisting them by keeping Hydra agents out of their way.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think Aida is allowing them free rein (it's a horse metaphor, so no g). Jemma and Daisy talked about how the others had assimilated to this world as if they'd always been there. That suggests there's a danger that they could lose their own memories if they spend too much time inside. Now, while Aida has clearly diverged from Radcliffe's goals for the Framework to an extent, the plan was to eventually put everyone in the world inside it, not just a few SHIELD agents. So maybe Madame Hy-Aida-ra expects Daisy and Jemma to lose their memories and get with the program (literally) once they're stuck there long enough.

 

[Star Wolf]

@Christopher just basically made my point. If it's really a simulation with real-world complexity and fidelity, then HYDRA would have tracked down the stolen car as a matter of course. If the car had GPS, how simple that would have been. This was an opportunity for Simmons to have recognized Fitz's hand in HYDRA's technology, say as she disabled or attempted to disable the car's security features. There was no indication that anything like that occurred. And even if there hadn't been a dedicated GPS device or Simmons had managed to disable it, the car's computer was still connected to the HYDRA network, which would have entailed some capability to geolocate the terminal's transceiver. Plus, given that she entered a query for Coulson's address from the stolen car, one has to wonder why HYDRA agents didn't pick her up at the school. Again, nothing we could see indicated in the slightest that Simmons was executing any countermeasures, but rather that she was just taking the safety of using the computer for granted.

Or, alternately, the complexity of the Framework's simulation in fact falls far short of the real world's, and possibly things taking place without direct involvement of the "players" don't have as much fidelity. But. my goodness, the simulated person who picked up Simmons in her car seemed quite lifelike.

And how lucky for Simmons that she had been buried in a shallow grave.

Even before Simmons appeared he, Coulson's student, was playing as a possible rebel or reason for Coulson to rebel in the framework and continued with Simmons at the car.

 

[kitik]

So maybe Madame Hy-Aida-ra expects Daisy and Jemma to lose their memories and get with the program (literally) once they're stuck there long enough.

Yeah, I was thinking that's a possibility. Also briefly thought that Madame Hydra might be Agnes, not Aida, but then she wouldn't be able to disable their escape button.

But I think there may be something further still.

Also, I loved how just about the entire internet was sure that Jemma's death was a fakeout, but nope, surprise, she was really dead.

Speaking of which, Gemma's body was fine. (Mostly, save for a parched throat.) She looked nothing like the decomposed body that was in the same grave. So she sort of brought her real-life body with her from the outside. Yet Daisy didn't. Her hair was different. (I think it was, right?) Once again, there's something else going on here.

 

[Christopher]

Speaking of which, Gemma's body was fine. (Mostly, save for a parched throat.) She looked nothing like the decomposed body that was in the same grave. So she sort of brought her real-life body with her from the outside. Yet Daisy didn't. Her hair was different. (I think it was, right?) Once again, there's something else going on here.

The difference could simply be that Daisy downloaded into a live Skye while Jemma downloaded into a dead Jemma. The program had to deal with Jemma being alive and dead at once, so it had to "reset" Jemma to alive/healthy status to reconcile the inconsistency. But it didn't have to do any such reconciliation with Daisy vs. Skye, so there was no need to overwrite her physical parameters as defined in the program. (As seen in her still being a latent Inhuman rather than an empowered one, as well as in her longer Skye hairstyle.)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah, I was thinking that's a possibility. Also briefly thought that Madame Hydra might be Agnes, not Aida, but then she wouldn't be able to disable their escape button.

But I think there may be something further still.

Also, I loved how just about the entire internet was sure that Jemma's death was a fakeout, but nope, surprise, she was really dead.

Speaking of which, Gemma's body was fine. (Mostly, save for a parched throat.) She looked nothing like the decomposed body that was in the same grave. So she sort of brought her real-life body with her from the outside. Yet Daisy didn't. Her hair was different. (I think it was, right?) Once again, there's something else going on here.

Yeah, that didn't make total sense, really.

Inserting themselves into the program involves modification of the data set, clearly, so maybe they made sure to give themselves bodily integrity of some sort, say in order to be compatible with their respective consciousnesses, as their initial condition coming in. But then perhaps the history that Skye hadn't undergone Terrigenesis inside the simulation took precedence? It all seems very hand-wavy.

 

[Velocity]

Aida seems to have transferred her affections from Radcliffe to Fitz. Fitz was always nice and respectful to her, so it isn't unreasonable that she would turn to him after Radcliffe let her down. She has adjusted the programming to suit her own specifications. Radcliffe hurt her by his love for another, so she definitely doesn't want Fitz to remember Jemma. Not a bad episode, but I'm tired of the LMD stuff now.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Ah, the SHIELD Mirror Universe.

And it was well done, although it still needs more explanation of how it came to be from Radcliffe's "world without pain." Obviously, Aida has created this dark mirror of reality for a reason. But it was fun to see corrupted versions of all the characters-- and how ironic that Ward is still a mole, but this time on the side of SHIELD. It's interesting that I had facetiously mentioned at some point that the LMD storyline would be a good opportunity to bring Ward back as a good guy-- not quite, but close. And theoretically it could still happen, since virtual Ward could be downloaded into an LMD. That would be kind of a cool note to end the series on.

And it looks like Daisy did indeed get through to Coulson-- perhaps he has an immunity to the brainwashing, since his memories have been altered before.

 

[Star Wolf]

Ah, the SHIELD Mirror Universe.

And it was well done, although it still needs more explanation of how it came to be from Radcliffe's "world without pain." Obviously, Aida has created this dark mirror of reality for a reason. But it was fun to see corrupted versions of all the characters-- and how ironic that Ward is still a mole, but this time on the side of SHIELD. It's interesting that I had facetiously mentioned at some point that the LMD storyline would be a good opportunity to bring Ward back as a good guy-- not quite, but close. And theoretically it could still happen, since virtual Ward could be downloaded into an LMD. That would be kind of a cool note to end the series on.

And it looks like Daisy did indeed get through to Coulson-- perhaps he has an immunity to the brainwashing, since his memories have been altered before.

As a world they quickly found out that May needed her pain and since then it has been tweaked for Leopold, Mace, Coulson, Agnes, Radcliffe and Mac. With the plan to immediately insert Simmons and Daisy when they escaped the LMDs. So they needed something more than no pain but a purpose for life

 

[Christopher]

As a world they quickly found out that May needed her pain and since then it has been tweaked for Leopold, Mace, Coulson, Agnes, Radcliffe and Mac.

I think you're conflating a couple of different things there. First, they tried to keep May placid within the Framework by keeping her happy, but that didn't work because she wasn't wired that way and resisted it. Then, they tried to keep her distracted by giving her something to fight against, but she just kept fighting until she reached the limits of the simulation (which was not yet large enough to encompass the entire world). So they realized that they had to go back to the root of her anger and hostility and change it so that she wouldn't be so aggressive, and they achieved that by removing her guilt about Bahrain, letting her save Katya Belyakov instead of killing her. But that backfired, because it just led to Katya having a later outbreak of her powers in Cambridge, and in that case, there was nobody to stop her in time.

Although Radcliffe didn't know about that last part, apparently, and the "tweaks" he wanted Aida to make for the others were designed to remove their primary sources of regret. But it looks like that backfired in much the same way May's retcon did. Without their greatest regrets, they didn't learn their greatest lessons and didn't become better people.