Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[JD]

Well, that sucks. I was getting used to the idea that I wouldn't have to see Mockingbird ruin AoS anymore. Now, not only do we not get that, but the 8 episode documentary on 50s Misogyny is getting renewed? As much as I enjoy Aos, I still wish we got an actual Marvel superhero show on TV, but I guess netflix has called dibs on them.

The fact that you still don't like Mockingbird aside, I am kinda curious what you think about the rest of the story development regarding the "real SHIELD" story and characters and Simmons, etc. Turned out quite a bit different than your predictions earlier, after all.

Well, I didn't really think my predictions would come true. Actually, I will give AoS a lot of credit. Gonzales's last scene really managed to turn him around. Sure, he had a mistrust for "enhanced" people that bordered on the Captain Ahab level, but he honestly tried to make peace. I never expected his "secret weapon" to be something Skye's mother had lost, and that really surprised me, almost as much as when Skye's mom proceeded to kill him. If they had made him a more balanced character the whole time, and not just show the crazy, obsessive stuff, I might have liked Gonzales better, and maybe sympathized with him. As it is, I can't forget how unbearable he made a bunch of episodes, but his last scene did a lot toward redeeming him.

As for the current set up, its interesting. I'd argue that emulating the Fury/World Council dynamic is a bit iffy, since the World Council tried to murder every person in New York with a nuke (I wonder what the US Government had to say about that, since they had to have learned about it eventually), and the new council itself is still pretty unlikeable, but its the best way the could have resolved it.

As for Mockingbird, I obviously still dislike her. She's still a traitor, and her "side", even if they ended up not being totally horrible, was still in the wrong compared to Coulson, and were still less legitimate than his SHIELD. I'm also wondering if, based on what Agent 33 was saying last episode, Mockingbird handed 33 over to Hydra when 33 was still a sane SHIELD agent, probably so Mockingbird could keep/establish her cover in Hydra. If that ends up being how 33 was captured and brainwashed, and that seems likely based on how Agent 33 has been reacting to Mockingbird, that's just another reason to hate her. I will grant that Mockingbird seems to be slightly less of an idiot than Mac (I am so glad he's leaving, but with my luck its a fake out), but with Gonzales gone (and somewhat redeemed by his death) and Mac leaving, Mockingbird is the worst main character on the show.

Bobbi isn't a traitor. She was working for Gonzales and his people the whole time. The only way she would have been a traitor was if she had stared actually working for Coulson.

Really glad to hear about both shows getting renewed. I'm not to surprised about the Mockingbird show, though. Some people were theorizing that it was a possible replacement for Agent Carter, and that would have made sense to me. I am she's going to be sticking around on the main.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What would have been hilarious, is if she tried to kill him, but he mutated into an Inhuman instead.

But now Gonzalez is up in heaven with Rosalind, so all is good.

 

[kirk55555]

Bobbi isn't a traitor. She was working for Gonzales and his people the whole time. The only way she would have been a traitor was if she had stared actually working for Coulson.

Well, from the perspective of Coulson's team she's a traitor. It really doesn't matter if you call her a traitor or a mole, I guess. She's still almost as bad as Ward when it comes to what she did to Coulson's team, she just had a lesser body count.

 

[Christopher]

Bobbi isn't a traitor. She was working for Gonzales and his people the whole time. The only way she would have been a traitor was if she had stared actually working for Coulson.

Excellent point. Saying she was a traitor to Coulson is like saying that she and Simmons were traitors to HYDRA. It's just a misuse of the word, because her allegiance was never to that group to begin with.

Bobbi was working for the Council. As far as the Council knew, Nick Fury was dead and Coulson was running an unsanctioned rogue operation. So they sent her and Mack in to infiltrate Coulson's team and determine whether they were traitors.

 

[ATimson]

Saying she was a traitor to Coulson is like saying that she and Simmons were traitors to HYDRA. It's just a misuse of the word, because her allegiance was never to that group to begin with.

Bobbi was working for the Council. As far as the Council knew, Nick Fury was dead and Coulson was running an unsanctioned rogue operation. So they sent her and Mack in to infiltrate Coulson's team and determine whether they were traitors.

I'll agree that Bobbi wasn't a traitor to Coulson. But she still infiltrated his team under false pretenses.

I recognize that she and the other members of her organization were doing the right thing with the information that they had. But despite that, I feel that if I were in Coulson's place I would have a much harder time forgiving the deception and welcoming them to the fold than he seemed to.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Bobbi isn't a traitor. She was working for Gonzales and his people the whole time. The only way she would have been a traitor was if she had stared actually working for Coulson.

Excellent point. Saying she was a traitor to Coulson is like saying that she and Simmons were traitors to HYDRA. It's just a misuse of the word, because her allegiance was never to that group to begin with.

Bobbi was working for the Council. As far as the Council knew, Nick Fury was dead and Coulson was running an unsanctioned rogue operation. So they sent her and Mack in to infiltrate Coulson's team and determine whether they were traitors.

While I understand the logic, it's kind of hard not to point out that the same thing applies to Ward - his loyalties were never really with them either. But they all seem very clear on the fact that he's a traitor...

 

[bbjeg]

Bobbi isn't a traitor. She was working for Gonzales and his people the whole time. The only way she would have been a traitor was if she had stared actually working for Coulson.

Excellent point. Saying she was a traitor to Coulson is like saying that she and Simmons were traitors to HYDRA. It's just a misuse of the word, because her allegiance was never to that group to begin with.

Bobbi was working for the Council. As far as the Council knew, Nick Fury was dead and Coulson was running an unsanctioned rogue operation. So they sent her and Mack in to infiltrate Coulson's team and determine whether they were traitors.

While I understand the logic, it's kind of hard not to point out that the same thing applies to Ward - his loyalties were never really with them either. But they all seem very clear on the fact that he's a traitor...

^Because Ward shot Shield agents. Mockingbird only shot Hydra IIRC.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Excellent point. Saying she was a traitor to Coulson is like saying that she and Simmons were traitors to HYDRA. It's just a misuse of the word, because her allegiance was never to that group to begin with.

Bobbi was working for the Council. As far as the Council knew, Nick Fury was dead and Coulson was running an unsanctioned rogue operation. So they sent her and Mack in to infiltrate Coulson's team and determine whether they were traitors.

While I understand the logic, it's kind of hard not to point out that the same thing applies to Ward - his loyalties were never really with them either. But they all seem very clear on the fact that he's a traitor...

^Because Ward shot Shield agents. Mockingbird only shot Hydra IIRC.

That's not the point (And possibly in question, based on Agent 33's reaction to her). His loyalties were always with Hydra, so based on this logic, he was never a traitor. Because he was doing exactly what his real superiors (Hydra) wanted him to do.

 

[RJDiogenes]

According to our friends at Merriam-Webster, a traitor is "one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty." So both of them would qualify.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Still the distinction ist that one is a murderous basterd and the other has good intentions and just disagrees with the team's methods.
From her point of view she was not sure if Coulson wasn't the traitor.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Oh, of course. There's no comparison between the two characters at all.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Oh, I'm not saying they're the same. Ward is clearly psychotic. But if either one of them is a 'traitor', then they both are. There's not really any way around that, imo.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

In the same sense that every undercover cop or whistleblower is a traitor, yeah.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In the same sense that every undercover cop or whistleblower is a traitor, yeah.

Whistleblowers are traitors. They're traitors to criminal organizations - which is a good thing. Undercover cops, well, that depends on the situation, but if they were deep undercover pretending to be a loyal member of the group, then yeah, they betrayed that group. Which is, again, a good thing.

The fact that someone betrayed someone else doesn't automatically mean they were wrong to do so. And even when they were right to do so, it doesn't mean it wasn't a betrayal.

Exactly where Mockingbird lies on that line of right vs wrong is difficult to say, since neither Coulson nor Gonzalez et al seem to be fully in the right. Which is basically the main reason why they've all (sort of) agreed to put it behind them and move on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you believe that your C.O. has the moral authority to tell you to do bad things, then you should be able to sleep at night fine.

 

[Christopher]

It doesn't really matter how finely we parse the word "traitor," because that's a distraction. Sticking labels on things is a superficial level of analysis and generally does more to obscure truth than reveal it. Every case is different, so no single word can adequately explain each distinct case.

SHIELD had been infiltrated and co-opted by HYDRA on a deep level, and the organization had fallen apart. The surviving pieces of SHIELD didn't know who else they could trust. And the government didn't know if it could trust them, so it hunted them down and they had to go into hiding. So they couldn't easily communicate with each other or figure out who should be in charge or trust the intentions of other surviving fragments. Given all that, a conflict like this was kind of inevitable and entirely understandable. Mack and Bobbi were just sent in to observe Coulson's group and determine their loyalties and intentions. As the alien influence on Coulson led him to make questionable decisions, and as those decisions led to consequences like Tripp's death and Skye's transformation, they had every reason to think that Coulson couldn't be trusted. In the wake of all of their betrayal by HYDRA, it was natural that they'd all be on the defensive about anything that seemed like an abuse of power.

So ultimately, all of this was nobody's fault except HYDRA's for creating the circumstances -- and probably Fury's, both for using untested alien tech to resurrect Coulson and for faking his death and letting a culture of secrets thrive within his organization. Both surviving SHIELD groups had equally benevolent intentions, equally limited understanding, and equally problematical methods, and it led them into an understandable and entirely forgivable conflict.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think Coulson would be fine with Bobbi because she was working for another SHIELD faction, and just as well might have been doing her duty for his faction if he'd wanted to infiltrate another one that he found suspicious. And he's happy to reconcile with the Gonzales faction and combine resources with them. Mack was a Gonzales mole, too, and Coulson clearly didn't want to lose him.

Plus it shows how useful an asset Bobbi is, that she successfully infiltrated Coulson's group. That's the sort of thing that he needs her for.

It's going to be a pity to see Cal fighting our peeps again...I've really grown to like him.

 

[Reverend]

Let's just get this out of the way: they're all SPIES. Lying about their intentions, identity and allegiance is all in the job description and treachery is just a matter of perspective.
Bobbie was loyal to her faction and did her duty as she saw it. She also betrayed Coulson's trust. What he thinks of her for it and whether he'll ever trust her again depends on how well he understands her reasoning and motivations.
They're all grown-ups and professionals, it's not that big of a deal. Indeed, Bobbie has consistently been Coulson's most vocal cheerleader within other SHIELD all along.

Ward on the other hand is a psychopath. His treachery is rather besides the point.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's going to be a pity to see Cal fighting our peeps again...I've really grown to like him.

Without his Hyde Forumla, he can't physically fight them.

However, are you aware of the Yoko Factor?

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think that my avatar clearly displays my familiarity with Yoko, but I'm not sure where she comes into play here. It sounds like you may have missed the part where they found several empty vials on Cal when taking him into custody...Jiaying clearly gave him his serum back and he drank some up....