Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)
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That's *one* technology they managed to reverse engineer from The Destroyer. I'm sure there's much more potent weapons that could come from further study. Or, perhaps they figured out how to reactivate and control the thing? Mind you, you'd think Heimdal would have zapped that thing right back the second they got the bifrost up and running again.
As for Abomination: a TV budget may not be able to do Abomination justice, but they might just be able to swing getting Tim Roth in some gamma suppressing shackles or some-such. Remember he was still pretty formidable (and damn near unkillable) even before Ross gave him a second dose, nevermind the third treatment he got from Sterns.
You'd think if it was standing orders in the event of his death, then Bobbi would have acted on them sooner (i.e. when he "officially" died), which was something like a day and a half before Hydra came out of the shadows. Indeed, we saw in the flashbacks what seemed like live or very recent news footage of the battle over the Triskellion. At that moment Fury was back on his feet and in the air.
Of course Fury never actually died and Hill was acting on his instructions the whole time, so if any "posthumous" orders were issued while he was still in surgery, they'd have come from Hill.
I think it stands to reason he sent the order (perhaps via Hill) just before everything kicked off in Pierce's office.
Pretty sure that all depended on them having the tesseract, which by now is back on Asgard. All they could learn from Zola's old Hydra weapons is how to build devices that can be powered by the cube.
Actually, that raises a bit of a plothole: if Zola was working in the shadows the whole time, why did it take so long for "SHIELD" to revisit the tesseract?
Is it possible Hydra never knew Stark recovered it? There were places in the lower levels of The Fridge that Garret never knew about, plus of course the Guest House facility.
How Hydra infiltrators were kept from that information for 70 years is anyone's guess. Even if it was all in a "Director's Eyes Only" file handed down from Carter, you'd have thought they'd have managed to install their own man as Director at some point.
IIRC, the news anchor made a reference to the battle at the Triskellion as having happened "this morning." So it's clearly only just a few hours later.
At this point, as has been noted above, the only people still alive who saw Fury alive at the Triskellion were Natasha and Sam.
Maybe these were "in the event of a massive infiltration of SHIELD by an unforeseen conspiracy that attempts to seize control of the ship" orders.
Maybe the Red Skull was the only person who was ever able to figure out how to use the Tesseract as an energy source. Or maybe Zola was fearful that screwing with the Tesseract would cause them to disappear like the Red Skull.
I see no reason to think that any prior SHIELD Directors had been Hydra agents. If anything, the fact that Pierce was the only Hydra agent who appeared to be any higher than the ranks of Sitwell, Coulson, and Garrett implies to me that their infiltration probably only ever reached a certain level.
That's a tad too specific methinks.
Regardless, the timing is still the main issue, unless the orders specifically said: "wait two days after I'm dead and THEN sink the ship with everyone on it." Which doesn't seem at all likely, no?
It makes sense that Fury would wait to give that order until right before the battle in DC. Any sooner and it'd tip their hand and Hydra may have launched Insight before they were ready.
Pretty certain it was Zola that developed the power syphoning/conversion rig, not Red Skull and Zola didn't strike me as the kind to be afraid of pushing scientific boundaries. I think the line in that scene was something like: "Your designs do not disappoint, though they may require some reinforcement."
That aside, nobody but Cap saw what happened to Red Skull and he seems to have assumed he was vaporised. The rest of the world probably assumed Rogers killed him before ditching the Valkyrie.
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That's a tad too specific methinks.
This is Nick Fury. I can totally see him having a contingency order in the event that someone infiltrates SHIELD.
No, but my assumption was that the order was something along the lines of, "If you become aware that a SHIELD ship carrying [whatever it is they're carrying] has been or is about to be hijacked, sink the ship if necessary to prevent enemy forces from gaining [whatever]." In which case, the relevant factor would be when Bobbi became aware of the Iliad suffering a hijacking, not when Fury died.
Then I would say the most probable scenarios are either: 1) simply that Hydra never managed to place enough agents at the highest levels of SHIELD decision-making to get them to use the Tesseract again until after first contact with the Asgardians; or 2) that the Tesseract remained inactive for many years no matter what was done to it; or 3) some combination of 1 and 2.
So what, Fury sat Morse down one day and spent three whole weeks giving her 573,012 specific orders to cover every possible eventuality?
Aside from being ludicrously impractical, that's just how Fury operates. It's all compartmentalised and need to know.
The implication from the 'Thor' post credit scene and what was said in 'Aventers' seems to be that SHIELD (or at least Fury) knew they had it, knew what it was but weren't willing to mess with it until the New Mexico incident proved that there was a bigger threat out there that they weren't prepared for. Hence shelving the Avenger initiative and "phase 2" of the Tesseract Project.(One assumes "phase 3" would have involved mounting those tesseract powered weapons on the Insight carriers.
)Still, 70 years is a long time and we knew by the 80's that Pierce was in a position to have Whitehall freed and have teams of Hydra agents running around the globe killing or brainwashing people on the gifted index right under SHIELD's nose. Indeed, I'm pretty sure they said Pierce was the one who hired Fury as Director. You'd think they'd have access to Carter's legacy files by that point and the Tesseract is no mere bauble. It was their founder's literal power base, you'd bet they'd be all over it if they knew it was stashed away in The Fridge.
No. But if there's a special McGuffin stashed aboard the Iliad, I can see him issuing a set of standing orders about keeping it out of enemy hands, to up and including hijackings.
That's my issue, though -- I don't think Fury would trust Bobbi enough to let her know he survived the Winter Soldier's assassination attempt.
The implication from the 'Thor' post credit scene and what was said in 'Aventers' seems to be that SHIELD (or at least Fury) knew they had it, knew what it was but weren't willing to mess with it until the New Mexico incident proved that there was a bigger threat out there that they weren't prepared for. Hence shelving the Avenger initiative and "phase 2" of the Tesseract Project.(One assumes "phase 3" would have involved mounting those tesseract powered weapons on the Insight carriers.
Still, 70 years is a long time and we knew by the 80's that Pierce was in a position to have Whitehall freed and have teams of Hydra agents running around the globe killing or brainwashing people on the gifted index right under SHIELD's nose.
Well, we know that Pierce was able to free Reinhardt in 1989, as an Undersecretary of some kind. But that doesn't mean that Hydra had any other moles nearly so high-ranking, nor does it mean that Pierce would have been able to get his way all the time in the halls of power.
They may well have known it was in SHIELD's possession, without having the chance to actually get at it.
Another possibility, of course, is that Zola's Hydra may have valued its undercover position too much throughout most of its history to be willing to take the risk of exposure by making a grab for the Tesseract, particularly if they felt they weren't yet done manipulating world events for their benefit. Maybe they felt that it wasn't time to move until 2012 -- at which point, maybe Pierce put the idea of using the Tesseract to re-develop Hydra weapons into Fury's ear after first contact with the Asgardians.
I was being facetious, but let's look at this.
Gonzales' group is not a Democracy; none of the rank-and-file get a vote for who sits at the top, much less what principles decisions are based on (sometimes known as a Constitution.) His group is an Oligarchy, a rule by a limited few. In this case, like many, the Oligarchy appointed itself. They have no credentials beyond having been in position to seize power at the time.
Agent Skinhead (and the rest) are now in a position where they were indoctrinated into a top-down military style command structure, and suddenly had decision making power fall into their laps. They are rookies at this. Gonzales, for all his age and experience of running an aircraft carrier is little better off. He was never in charge of the organization, not even close.
For Agent Skinhead (and the rest) there will be a tendency to overshoot his actual authority. Because he has decision making power he will feel he has personal autonomy to make his own choices on the fly. Why should he not feel that way? The military structure he was a part of no longer has authority; he is now on the board of directors of a private security firm. Outside of the boardroom he will instruct his underlings as he sees fit because he IS in authority over them. Same thing happens in corporations, and, as mentioned, within governments. The difference is there are no audits after the fact to measure how departments are being managed.
Yep.
"Bobbi, you're in charge of security on Project Man-Thing. Scuttle the ship before letting anyone else get control over it."
It's really not too hard to imagine Fury giving an order like that. In fact that's exactly the type of order Fury would give.
Just look at how many pre-arranged emergency orders the Clone Troopers had. 66 wasn't the only one. There were 150!
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cont...ublic:_Order_Initiation,_Orders_1_Through_150
There were 150!http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cont...ublic:_Order_Initiation,_Orders_1_Through_150
Yeah, one would hope it's a different kind of twist, whatever it is.
I don't think it's something as physically grand as The Destroyer or The Abomination.
Remember, even though it required three Hellicarriers, the real threat from The Winter Soldier was software. A program. I'm thinking it's something along those lines, or biowarfare. Something small, that looks harmless, but with the potential to do serious harm.
Remember, even though it required three Hellicarriers, the real threat from The Winter Soldier was software. A program. I'm thinking it's something along those lines, or biowarfare. Something small, that looks harmless, but with the potential to do serious harm.
If it was small they could have hid it some where discreet.
Of course an armed force taking over a S.H.I.E.L.D. carrier is unthinkable.
Of course an armed force taking over a S.H.I.E.L.D. carrier is unthinkable.
I bet it is connected to the toolbox somehow.
It might be small, but it needed to unreachable and well protected. So, at sea and with hundreds of agents on that ship, they'd asumed it would be safe. They did not expect HYDRA infiltrators.
Maybe it's a digital copy of Zola?
Zola wishes that he was 16 bit.
Of course like models Ultron looking down sour faced on last years model, maybe there are more advanced versions of the Zola Artificial Intelligence treating the Zola before him as an idiot child you can't trust with an ounce of responsibility.
Autoracism = Self-loathing.
Of course considering how the children treat their parent, where the frack does the drive to procreate come from?
There was a West Cost Avengers storyline where two models of Ultron went to war, but not because they arguing over who was more evil, sickeningly one of them was nice and hugged it out with Hank Pym like a loving father and son.
Can we trust the claims that the original Zola really died?
Are you suggesting that the disembodied intellect of a Swiss ex-Nazi scientist stored on a quarter million feet of old IBM 9 track data tape reels and the processing speed of a Windows 95 era P100 machine, that's been stuck in an underground bunker on a disused army base since the Nixon administration won't be an entirely accurate or honest source of information?
Perish the thought!
Seriously though, I tend to agree that if whatever it was needed a carrier to transport or store, then it has be something *big*. A computer program or virus could be moved with just a small and much less conspicuous covert team.
Something occurs to me regarding that Hulk proof box they had on the hellecarrier: for them to be confident it'd actually work they would have had to tested it somehow...I mean, who else but Blonsky, no?
Wouldn't the Hulk Fist-print in Skye's safehouse be considered a materials test?
Different box. The one on the hellicarrier was mostly made out of some transparent material, while the panelling in the cabin looked exactly like the isolation room on The Bus.
Besides, it's a bit unclear as to when and how that cabin was built. Coulson mentioned that Cap stayed there for a while after defrosting, so that would mean it was built some time prior to Avengers. By all accounts, aside from the Harlem incident Banner had been in the wind since the day after his first "episode". So it seems unlikely he built it with the co-operation of SHIELD and indeed the look of the thing seems similar enough to the one at the end of TIH that it's probably meant to be the same place, which raises the question exactly how he built it and with what resources? He was essentially homeless and destitute for years during that time.
I suppose it's possible Coulson was just lying about it being where Cap stayed, not wanting to freak Sky out be telling her he was putting her in a Hulk proof cage. That would allow for it to be built *after* the Battle of New York when Banner has access to Stark's resources
...or maybe it was a half truth in that Cap did stay there after helping Banner build it, but not *immediately* after waking up.
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