Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Alidar Jarok]

I really don't want to get dragged into the law again, but here goes.

You have no right to defend your property with deadly force. Even when someone enters your home, if they're only going to steal stuff, you can't shoot them. However, if you think they're going to attack you, you don't have to retreat and can fire back. I think this is a matter of interpretation here rather than a clear answer, but think about it before you decide whether HYDRA Bob is allowed to fire (I will be seriously disappointed if he isn't HYDRA Bob, btw). If HYDRA Bob knew they were only going to steal stuff and chose to fire and had shot and killed someone, Bob would be the murderer, not the other way around.

Simply entering a place is a trespass. That's a misdemeanor or something you can sue over. It isn't a felony. Likewise, Breaking and Entering with the intent to trespass or to steal something isn't necessarily a felony. Burglary is Breaking and Entering with the intent to commit a felony. There was a breaking (they opened a door) and an entry (they crossed the threshold into the building). Some laws still require the place to be a dwelling but I'll ignore that.

So what was the felony. It comes down to what they were trying to steal (I'll assume they had the intent to steal at that point even if they hoped it could be avoided through negotiation even then). If what they were stealing was over a certain value, it would be felony grand larceny. If not, it would be misdemeanor petit larceny. What's the value? You'd have to tell me where the World War II bunker was for me to know. I would assume it had a decent value, but there's no way to know for sure. I'd also assume that the people who owned the facility had a right to own it and it wasn't owned by the poor Kree bastard in the tube. So it's possible it was Grand Larceny, in which case it was a burglary.

Maybe, alternatively, they intended to commit a robbery (they did in fact commit a robbery). But did they intend to commit the robbery before they were shot at or did they still intend to negotiate a peaceful solution? If we're talking about the law, that's relevant. But, once again, why are we talking about the law?

 

[Velocity]

Colson tried talking to the guys inside the facility, but they refused to dialog. They did not have time to try less direct methods, so they went inside and forced the issue. Collateral damage, boo hoo. Everyone knows that no one besides the protagonists have any personal ties that need to be regarded. I think that Colson was as interested in exploring where he was revived against his will as much as he was interested in saving Skye's life. I have a feeling that Skye is more important to him and probably May than she should be. Is there a relationship that hasn't been revealed?

 

[Nerys Myk]

As we learned in Hickman's Secret Warriors, SHIELD and Hydra are the same thing, they just don't realize it.

Now there's a plotline that needs to be Mephistoed away.

 

[Mister Fandango]

I really don't want to get dragged into the law again, but here goes.

You realize there's a difference between breaking into someone's house and breaking into a secure military installation, right? Especially when the ones doing so are rogue operatives (feel free to point out when they were given orders to do so) loaded to the gills with milspec gear and automatic weapons. They stepped off the plane like that. They went in knowing things were going to get ugly, and they went in ready to kill. Else they would have been loaded up with the very non-lethal weapons they almost always use in every other situation.

And, again, there's fuck-all relating to HYDRA about that place. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but all evidence points to this being a military black site. Exactly like Area 51. And, also again, if it were a HYDRA base, why the hell would Fury just hand it back over when they were done saving Coulson's life? Especially if it only had two dudes protecting it?

There's just no sense in the counterarguments other than "they're the heroes, so it's kinda okay, and I'm totally sure it was HYDRA, for serious!"

 

[Mr Light]

Secret Warriors was actually a really cool story with a very labyrinthine plot. Like I said, 99% of the SHIELD agents had no idea they were connected to Hydra, and 99% of the Hydra agents had no idea they were connected to SHIELD.

Also? SHIELD was founded in 2620 BC by the Pharoah Imhotep. And it's run by an immortal Leonardi Da Vinci and an immortal Galileo in a vast underground city underneath Rome. Again, Hickman comics.

 

[sojourner]

but all evidence points to this being a military black site.

Just to point out. There's no more evidence for this than there is for it being Hydra.

Generic guys in black protecting an installation in an abandoned WW2 bunker. No insignia, no location given.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Just to point out. There's no more evidence for this than there is for it being Hydra.

Generic guys in black protecting an installation in an abandoned WW2 bunker. No insignia, no location given.

The evidence comes from simple logic. SHIELD wouldn't hand a HYDRA facility back to HYDRA after they were done using it. And there wouldn't just be two dudes down there; only military incompetence accounts for that particular error.

 

[sojourner]

That is the exact opposite of evidence.

 

[Christopher]

This is ridiculous. This is a spy story and we're talking about civil law. How long would James Bond spend in prison if everything he's done were prosecuted? What is it about this particular spy story that makes it subject to a totally different set of standards than we use to assess every other spy story we've ever seen?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You realize there's a difference between breaking into someone's house and breaking into a secure military installation, right?

The military gets to do things that civilians don't get to do. They have the power and force of a sovereign backing them. If it's your own sovereign (i.e., you attack the US military), then that sovereign likely created special rules. If it's a different sovereign, the rules are very different. It's generally either an act of war or an act done by an unlawful combatant. However, at the same time, those special rules created by that other sovereign don't apply to you. Obviously, the special rules the Argentinian government created to let their military act did not prevent Coulson's team from re-taking their plane in 0-8-4, for example.

And, again, there's fuck-all relating to HYDRA about that place. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but all evidence points to this being a military black site. Exactly like Area 51.

So your view is that it makes a difference who owned it. Coulson's actions would be justified if it were against HYDRA or Centipede or AIM? In that case, I suggest we all just wait until we have more information.

But I see no evidence the installation was a US military one. In fact, I would be highly skeptical they would claim it is because I don't think the show wants to say that the United States military is engaging in such questionable behavior. I'll bet dollars to donuts (although I'm never sure who gets the dollars and who gets the donuts in that bet) that it is not a US base.

And, also again, if it were a HYDRA base, why the hell would Fury just hand it back over when they were done saving Coulson's life? Especially if it only had two dudes protecting it?

Well, the facility obviously had far more than two people when it was in active use. The other side upheld their part of the bargain. You're ok with Fury saying "thanks for all your help bringing someone back from the dead, I'm going to drop a bunker busting bomb on you now"? In addition, it's something that could be a potential resource in the future. SHIELD takes the world as is not how they like it to be. Sometimes you have to make a deal with those who are unpleasant or bad because you think it's for the greater good. Or when you're moving heaven and earth to bring back someone you care about.

There's just no sense in the counterarguments other than "they're the heroes, so it's kinda okay, and I'm totally sure it was HYDRA, for serious!"

Your view is entirely dependent on the United States military capturing, torturing, experimenting upon, and harvesting a sentient extraterrestrial being. You seem to think, had the organization been HYDRA, it was not only ok to kill them all, it was ok to use them for your own gain than mercilessly wipe them out through overwhelming force. You seem to imply that killing them was unjustified only because they were the US military. In that case, if it were some other fictional organization of moral questionability who would in fact do said capturing, torturing, experimenting, and harvesting, you would have no problem with it. Given all this, your argument is premised entirely on something not yet supported by the facts and you probably should wait until we know more information.

 

[Captain Qwert Jr]

This is ridiculous. This is a spy story and we're talking about civil law. How long would James Bond spend in prison if everything he's done were prosecuted? What is it about this particular spy story that makes it subject to a totally different set of standards than we use to assess every other spy story we've ever seen?

1.) it's not just about law, though that is not irrelevant.
2.)Spy stories do acknowledge the law, and ethics, and morality.
3.) As the story was presented Coulson went rogue and killed two people for personal reasons. You may sympathize with those reasons, but you cant justify them. The two killed, had just as much right to live as Skye, or May or Ward.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I do hope that this isn't forgotten. I read the scene as deliberately morally questionable. I do think they intended to show that he wasn't acting with the goal of kill first and that he did think it was an "only if necessary" situation, but the way that scene was written played the opposition as reasonable people too. They certainly didn't have to do that.

On the other hand, there were legitimate plot reasons for the use of lethal force beyond making a morally questionable scene:
1) You kill off the opponents because you want to keep their organization a secret.
2) You need an action scene because the episode kind of needed one.
3) It was never going to end with:
"Can we come in?"
"No"
"OK" (walks away and Skye dies)

 

[Mister Fandango]

Your view is entirely dependent on the United States military capturing, torturing, experimenting upon, and harvesting a sentient extraterrestrial being.

First, where did you see any signs of torture? Hell, I'm the one who pointed out that he was most likely still alive; everyone else assumed he was dead.

Second, you act like you've never heard of the military holding and experimenting on aliens before in fiction.

Third, I never once said it was okay if it was HYDRA or some other evil organization. You guys are the ones who keep trying to hold that up as the saving grace for Coulson's actions. I'm the one pointing out that it clearly wasn't a HYDRA installation, not that it has any bearing on the rest of the arguments. It's just me pointing out how phenomenally wrong you are all around; you're basically pulling shit out of your asses with zero logical or on-screen evidence to back it up other than wishful thinking and the dire hope that it, somehow, justifies Coulson's actions. Which it doesn't, because there was no evidence whatsoever that it was a HYDRA -- or Centipede, or any other evil organization -- facility. ALL evidence -- namely it being a site SHIELD has used in the recent past, it being in SHIELD's database, and it being so top secret even Coulson didn't have permission to know about it (why would they hide a HYDRA base for them?) -- points to it being a legitimate, albeit black, location.

So you're pretty much wrong on every single account.

 

[DEWLine]

And it looks vaguely iffy as to whether Fury was supposed to know about it at all.

One more reason I want to see Fury show up for at least one more on-camera appearance in this show.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Your view is entirely dependent on the United States military capturing, torturing, experimenting upon, and harvesting a sentient extraterrestrial being.

First, where did you see any signs of torture? Hell, I'm the one who pointed out that he was most likely still alive; everyone else assumed he was dead.

There are autopsy scars. He's also missing his lower half. If he's alive, both actions combined suggest torture in the usual sense of the word. Torture doesn't have to be for the purpose of obtaining information.

Third, I never once said it was okay if it was HYDRA or some other evil organization. You guys are the ones who keep trying to hold that up as the saving grace for Coulson's actions.

Actually, I said that it was irrelevant whether or not it was HYDRA. That's why I was surprised by your argument about how it couldn't be. If it wasn't the military but was HYDRA, would it change your opinion? I've asked that question about ten times now. While I never got a clear answer, your answers to other questions seemed to imply it would make a difference (your point about the US military being different when it comes to the law, for example). But how about answering that question next time you reply to me?

 

[LaxScrutiny]

I disagree with there being no evidence of it being an evil organization. I think the evidence is that they found a living being and tortured and experimented on it to extract it as a natural resource. I thought the implication was that it was still alive even though its missing half its torso, being maintained alive in order to continue to harvest from it.

....

Why are you so desperate to believe that they did nothing wrong? You try to defend them on legal grounds, and are shot down. You try to defend them on black ops grounds and are shot down.

If this was a legal installation, then Coulson and crew are murderers.

If this was an extra legal agency (SWORD for example) then Coulson and crew are murderers.

If this was a Hydra facility, then Coulson and crew are still murderers because they did not know that and their motives were criminal.

Two deaths do not justify one life, either ethically, legally, or emotionally.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Why are you so desperate to believe that they did nothing wrong?

Why are you so desperate to believe that they did?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Why are you so desperate to believe that they did nothing wrong? You try to defend them on legal grounds, and are shot down. You try to defend them on black ops grounds and are shot down.

I'm not. I said it was morally ambiguous.

But I think it's ambiguous, not a clear cut wrong. I think they did some reasonable things and the other guys did some unreasonable things. At the same time, I think they did some unreasonable things and the other guys had no reason to help SHIELD. I think it's possible to think of it as a misunderstanding. I think it's possible to think of it as spy vs. spy and the best spy won. But I don't think it's possible to read that scene as "Coulson came in looking to be a cold-blooded killer and murdered two people." I think it's more nuanced than that.

 

[sojourner]

^Agreed. Neither side can claim the moral victory.

 

[RJDiogenes]

It seemed clear to me that this was some illegal facility and that Fury had gone to the dark side to save Coulson. What I'm curious about is why the facility was all but abandoned and rigged to self destruct. The place wasn't powered down, the machinery, including the pumps draining the alien corpse, were still operating, there weren't tarps thrown over everything, but there were no scientists or technicians-- just two over-eager minions. Where was everybody? Is it a HYDRA base that SHIELD cleared out and some Level 10s decided to keep going against orders in case they need it? Is the abandonment of the place related to Doctor Glass going off the grid? And was the point of the self destruct to prevent something dangerous from getting out or to destroy evidence?

Also? SHIELD was founded in 2620 BC by the Pharoah Imhotep. And it's run by an immortal Leonardi Da Vinci and an immortal Galileo in a vast underground city underneath Rome. Again, Hickman comics.

Do they run it from Warehouse 13?

What is it about this particular spy story that makes it subject to a totally different set of standards than we use to assess every other spy story we've ever seen?

Because SHIELD is the new Enterprise.