Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Trekker4747, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    You really should read up more on how the Nazis came to power. Remember, they were elected. And a lot of people who were part of the machinery weren't aware of the full extent of what was happening, and a lot of them were uneasy with it but inclined to follow their superiors' orders anyway (also research the Milgrom experiment). I'd particularly recommend Christopher R. Browning's book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. Here's an essay I wrote about it in college.


    But that's just the point -- people at the time didn't know what we know now. They were manipulated by lies and propaganda, told what they wanted to hear and guided into compliance. The top people knew what was going on, but they depended on the sheer numbers of rank-and-file soldiers and workers and bureaucrats who were only aware of their own small pieces of the puzzle and blind to the true scope of the atrocities they were participating in.


    You're simply echoing the disbelief the characters in the episode expressed that Garrett could be HYDRA. It's like Coulson said -- they convince you by being your friend, by hiding their true nature behind a facade of benevolence. The most potent evils are not obvious cackling psychopaths, because then they'd never get into a position of power. The greatest villains are charismatic and charming and likeable. Hitler and Idi Amin were great fun at parties, to all accounts. People liked them and wanted to follow them. They were good at hiding who they truly were.

    Remember, HYDRA was playing a long game. They weren't going around doing evil on a daily basis, because that would've blown their cover. They functioned as sleeper agents, playing the role of good guys for years or decades in order to gain rank and influence so they could subtly maneuver things into position for when they were finally ready to make their move.

    SHIELD didn't. The HYDRA agents in positions of power within SHIELD did, and lied to the rest about the real purpose of Operation Insight. That's how groups like this get their way -- through lies and deception. What you see is not what you get.
     
  2. Gryffindorian

    Gryffindorian Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Location:
    Gryffindorian
    This.

    Whew! That was an intense episode and a great tie-in to TWS. The events on this episode had to have taken place during the takeover and shortly after the destruction of the Triskelion. I was convinced Victoria Hand was the traitor, but somehow I suspected Garrett was dirty. What I didn't see coming was Ward killing Hand. It will be interesting to see what his real motivations are.
     
  3. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    I'm sure a log will be written that someone downloaded the files.
     
  4. Yminale

    Yminale Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Location:
    Democratically Liberated America
    Yeah they recruited street thugs, drug addicts, alcoholics and mystics. Not what I call rational people.

    That's actually a myth. Hitler was appointed chancellor in order to form a unity government. The Nazis were not the majority party at the time.

    And in it doesn't matter. This is HYDRA. Are you telling me people remember Captain America but forget about HYDRA. If the group had another name, your argument would make sense.

    I'm echoing the disbelief of a rational person watching the show and TWS...

    Knowing what you know NOW would you trust Hitler or Id Amin. Exactly

    HYDRA played a near perfect game which is another problem. No organization is that good and if they were that good they would have won, regardless of what the heroes did.

    The problem is the crews knew exactly what they were doing. That's why it was OK for Captain America to murder them all with his mighty shield.
     
  5. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Location:
    The Old Mixer, Somewhere in Connecticut
    One detail I noticed is that they pointedly didn't have Ward say "Hail, Hydra", which would have been an obvious moment...indicating that he wasn't already on the inside, and wasn't going to pretend that he was because Garrett would know better.
     
  6. Yminale

    Yminale Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Location:
    Democratically Liberated America
    Sitwell and Brock Rumlow didn't say "Hail, Hydra" in TWS but I could be wrong
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Location:
    Back to the lower decks
    You're not wrong.
     
  8. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Location:
    The Old Mixer, Somewhere in Connecticut
    I'm not saying that it's a requirement, but that they had an obvious beat to do it and pointedly didn't.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    It's social programming, changing the language, changes thought. or at least that's what I remember from 1984.

    Hail Hydra = Goodbye AND hello AND awesome.

    If Hydra was really on the ball, they would remove the words hello and goodbye and awesome from the dictionary and therefore the language...

    Although from how TWS was structured, they only people being told overtly about Hydra were those about to be murdered, because Hydra were going to rule as a secret Empire who Joe Sixpack still thought was classic good old fashioned America.

    Tonight's episode of AOS didn't exactly resemble that game plan.
     
  10. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Location:
    Germany, Earth, the Solar System
    It didn't, but that's because Hydra's plan was about to blow up in their face when Fury was on the verge of discovering it all.
    That's why he tried to stop the launch of the carriers and Hydra accelerated it after assassinating him.
    When Captain America also discovered their plan, they abandoned all pretenses. That's what we saw in this episode. Mostly the fall out from TWS.

    Since they couldn't keep the secret anymore, they tried force with getting the helicarriers up in the air and targeting every potential resistance leader in one swoop. Cut of ALL the heads of Hydra's enemy at once so to speak. ;)
     
  11. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Location:
    UK
    Sometimes, not doing the obvious thing is a better choice. Like say *not* making Hand a Hydra agent.

    I think there's almost no chance that Ward isn't Hydra. The only way the infiltration idea would work is if it was Hand's idea and their deaths were somehow staged. Even then, there's the problem of how to dispose of the not-dead bodies without raising suspicion. I don't think she or Ward (assuming he's not evil) would sacrifice three high level agents at a time when they need all the people they can get.

    No, Ward specifically asked to go along. It was his idea and from that foreshadowing look from Coulson, you can tell the director intended for the audience to feel that something was off.

    Honestly, this is the best thing to do with Ward. It makes sense now why they made him so bland if the intent all along was to flip him to the other side. Now we get a recurring villain that we actually know to some degree and isn't just some mindless pawn.

    As for that thing from TWS that wasn't spoiled...
    As Baron Von Glowey Eyesocket said, the files that Cap dumped on the net weren't *everything*, just what Fury had access to at the time. Indeed we saw in the film that some things had been sealed so even he couldn't get in. I suspect the files on Skye and the "Guest" are either buried very deep or not on the system at all. I'm sure there's plenty of ultra top secret

    Oh and speaking of things that weren't spoiled; remember that the Bus crew don't know Fury is still alive.

    Actually, when you think about it, there isn't much that this episode spoiled that you couldn't have gotten one way or another from the movie's trailers.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The movie could have ended with the Winter soldier killing Captain America.

    Steve died in the comics and Bucky took over for YEARS.

    A "version" of that was more than possible, and is still possible for those that haven't seen the movie.
     
  13. Vendikarr

    Vendikarr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 17, 2001
    Location:
    Vendikarr
    How's this for a theory?

    During the fight in the hallway, Ward was captured. Someone used one of those holo-masks like Black Widow did in TWS. When it was time for Hand to leave with her prisoner, another Hydra agent took Ward's place, maybe Trippet(?), to free his partner, and point suspicion on to Ward should it go wrong. And maybe to infiltrate Coulson's team. Farfetched I know, but it could work. I would rather Ward be the baddie though, I never really liked the character.
     
  14. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Location:
    The Old Mixer, Somewhere in Connecticut
    Or not making Ward one.

    I think that Ward is on his own side now, whatever his motivation.

    The killing of the fake Clairvoyant could be because he was Hydra all along, or it could be because he's now willing to do extreme things to protect Skye, which is what he claims.

    A week ago, a lot of folks around here were still all on about how the berserker staff must still be having an effect on him...maybe it is.

    I also remember somebody floating the idea out there that Skye's ability is making people want to protect her. Maybe Ward is under the influence, hence his extreme actions both when he killed the fake Clairvoyant and now.

    I saw nothing in the trailers about Hydra or about Sitwell's true nature...both genuine surprises for me in the movie theater.
     
  15. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Location:
    The Singularity
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    He wasn't protecting Sky because he knew that that wasn't the Clairvoyant.

    3 possibilities come to mind.

    1. Ward was ordered to kill Suder a week before he entered that room.

    2. Ward wanted to trick Skye into thinking that he really cared for her so that she would "go out for a drink" sometime, by playing into her unsubstantiated fears.

    3. Skye's fear of this fake clairvoyant was real, so murdering him, which he was not strictly ordered to do so, but was within his mission parameters, did put her mind at ease, and he did save her from the unfounded and misplaced terror she was feeling... So, he was saving her, after a fashion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  17. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    I thought that too before this episode but we see Triplett yell at Garrett as they carry him off and Ward is there too. If Ward is someone else, it's not Triplett.

    It looks like Triplett is joining the cast.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  18. dansigal

    dansigal Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    To be fair, we don't know that for sure yet. I don't believe it's the case, but it's still a possibility at least that he still believed that guy was the Clairvoyant at that time.
     
  19. Eduardo

    Eduardo Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 30, 2001
    Location:
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    You're talking about the party members. I'm talking about the millions of ordinary German citizens who did the everyday grunt work without which the Nazis couldn't have done anything. As I said, you need to read up -- to learn more about the subject, not just restate what you already believe. There is always more to learn.


    There are plenty of neo-Nazis out there, and plenty of people who think the Confederacy wasn't so bad. There are always people who are willing to be convinced that such groups weren't as bad as history portrayed them, or that the old guard was flawed and corrupt and the new version is better.

    You seem to be assuming that it's impossible for any malicious group to win large numbers of followers. I only wish that were true, because history would be a lot less bloody if it were. But such groups are very good at gaining large numbers of followers, whether by appealing to people's baser instincts, exploiting their inclination to obey authority, or simply lying to them.



    In the words of Jean-Luc Picard, "It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose."

    And really, this is the way it almost always works in fiction. The bad guys are supposed to be nearly unbeatable, to come within a hair's breadth of total victory. That way, it's more impressive when the heroes triumph against overwhelming odds.


    Yes, of course they did! The film made it quite clear that the HYDRA agents in charge of Operation Insight chose to man the Helicarriers entirely with their own people. No, not everyone in SHIELD as a whole was part of HYDRA, but everyone selected as crew aboard those carriers was, because the entire project was a HYDRA plot.


    Anyway, change of subject: I find myself wishing that either CA:TWS had come out a couple of months earlier or AoS had premiered a couple of months later. This twist basically constitutes the "midpoint reversal" in the traditional 3-act structure, the moment where everything you thought you knew about the story and its goals is turned on its head and the characters face their greatest setback. So it would've worked better structurally if it had come at, well, the midpoint, halfway through the season instead of nearly 3/4 into it.