Spoilers Agatha All Along discussion and spoilers.
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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Showrunners lie, I know, but I remember reading before the season started that Rio Vidal is a wholly new character.
...but this is also the showrunner who brought us Not Quicksilver,* so anything is possible.
*I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I ultimately liked the twist regarding Evan Peters even if I didn't initially. Sometimes subverting fan expectations, especially those absurdly high as they were going into WandaVision, is a good thing. I would not be surprised if they same thing plays out here. That goes doubly for Teen.
...but this is also the showrunner who brought us Not Quicksilver,* so anything is possible.
*I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I ultimately liked the twist regarding Evan Peters even if I didn't initially. Sometimes subverting fan expectations, especially those absurdly high as they were going into WandaVision, is a good thing. I would not be surprised if they same thing plays out here. That goes doubly for Teen.
Well, if there's never been a female Blackheart in the comics, then you could argue she's a new character "inspired" by the comics version. Again, I'm not going to fight anybody on this, and I know there's a good chance I'm wrong, it's just that I find it hard to believe the whole black heart references were a coincidence. But it could just be the writers screwing with fans like me who are always hidden meanings in this kind of thing, which is not unheard with shows like this.
Getting the Ballad right was extremely important, and I think they succeeded brilliantly.
Well hopefully they'll explain at some point. It's possible Wanda's death weakened the spell but it took Rio and/or Teen showing up to finally weaken it enough for Agatha to escape. Or to put it another way maybe Wanda's death unlocked the door to Agatha's prison, but since Agatha didn't realise she was in a prison she had no reason to open the door. The fact that the murder she was investigating revolved around Wanda could back this up, or it might be something else.
I still think the idea of Agatha living through various cop shows is a stretch without further evidence that this happened. All John says is that she's been on a true crime kick lately which seems odd to him, it isn't like he says "But we're used to your weird cop fantasies" or anything like that.
Happy to be proven wrong by events as they unfold, heck I've been wrong (many times) before. I still remember fervently arguing on here that the idea that William was visiting the park in the past in Westworld was ridiculous
Why bother? The MCU has gender-flipped multiple comics characters already, including the Ancient One, the Ghost, Taskmaster, Mar-Vell, Flag Smasher, and Ajak, Makkari, and Sprite of the Eternals. No reason to approach this any differently.
That doesn't explain it. The issue is the timing. Wanda died at least two years ago, apparently. The detective-drama delusion began only three weeks ago. What I'm saying is, why would it have changed only three weeks ago, as opposed to earlier?
But there's no evidence of anything causing a change three weeks ago either. It's an arbitrary, ad hoc assumption. I think it's more consistent with Occam's Razor to posit that she's been in a series of detective illusions all along, because we have the precedent of WandaVision to demonstrate that's how Wanda's illusion spells work. Agatha experiencing a chronologically advancing series of TV pastiches is more consistent with that established precedent than Agatha just living an ordinary life as Agnes for three years and then suddenly, inexplicably changing to hallucinating a detective drama three weeks ago.
Events need causes. We know the cause for Agatha's overall hallucinatory state: Wanda cast a spell on her. But we have no evidence of a cause for anything that would induce a change between that point and Rio's arrival. Therefore, until and unless such evidence is presented, the simpler hypothesis is that this is how the spell has operated all along.
Except it can't have been "true crime," since that term refers to nonfiction reporting on real-life crimes presented as entertainment, like the TV show Unsolved Mysteries or the recent trend of true-crime podcasts (though there were plenty of true-crime magazines and books in older days). Agatha was hallucinating a fictional TV detective series, a pastiche of various recent shows including HBO's True Detective. Even if John said "true crime," he was probably misspeaking in reference to True Detective and TV shows like it. So he could've meant she'd been on a recent kick to emulate that specific TV genre after previously emulating earlier TV-detective genres.
How long ago was the car accident (over in Eastview, I think)? The one that "Agnes" said she felt had something to do with her case? I think they said two people died in the crash, but what if...well, obviously, that's not the whole story...
And then Teen showed up.
If you know the comics story, you probably know where I'm heading with this. So I'll just leave it there...
'
My point wasn't that she was a gender flipped, my point was that it was a way for them to call her an "original" character, even if she's actually Blackheart. TV showrunners like to twist thing so they can say something that sounds like it one thing, but actually means something else. And they have been know to outright lie a few times.
Time will tell and I'm guessing they will clarify why it was at this moment that Agatha was able to break out of the spell. It could be simply that Wanda's death weakened it but it took Rio and Teen turning up (and maybe it just took time to track down where Agatha was) to complete the process, but I agree that Rio and Teen turning up at the same time doesn't feel coincidental.
It may be they also flash back to Agatha having other cop show delusions and happy to be proven wrong if they do, but if they don't then it's nothing more than a neat idea there's no evidence for outside of putting two and two together and getting five. I kinda hope I am wrong because I think it would be fun to see (although it would also feel a little too much like a WandaVision redux) but given they've said each episode is going to riff on a particular horror film/genre it might be over egging things if they then start shoving in cop show flashbacks as well.
It may be they also flash back to Agatha having other cop show delusions and happy to be proven wrong if they do, but if they don't then it's nothing more than a neat idea there's no evidence for outside of putting two and two together and getting five. I kinda hope I am wrong because I think it would be fun to see (although it would also feel a little too much like a WandaVision redux) but given they've said each episode is going to riff on a particular horror film/genre it might be over egging things if they then start shoving in cop show flashbacks as well.
You're just restating the exact same thing you said last time, and I already explained that it has nothing to do with my actual question. I'm not asking about what changed in the first episode, I'm asking about what could have changed three weeks before the first episode, which is when her crime-show delusion reportedly began. If the show is set three years after WandaVision, then it's presumably two or more years after Wanda died in Multiverse.
Also, why would "the spell weakening" (after a 2-year delay for some reason) change the nature of the spell from "Agatha believes she's an ordinary Westview resident called Agnes" to "Agatha believes she's the protagonist of a gritty detective drama?" If anything, the spell would have to get stronger in order to intensify her delusion to that extent.
On the contrary, I'm arguing entirely from the available evidence and precedent. You're the one whose argument requires at least two ad hoc assumptions beyond the data: one, that Wanda's death two years ago somehow had a delayed effect that only kicked in three weeks ago, and two, that the "weakening" of the spell could somehow make it a more extreme delusion. Both of which I find self-contradictory and illogical. You could invent handwaves to reconcile why it worked that way, but again, that's introducing your own conjectures instead of reasoning from existing evidence.
If you strip those arbitrary assumptions away, then that leaves the simpler conclusion that the spell did not fundamentally change three weeks ago. And if it didn't change, then that means it's been TV dramas all along. Which only requires that it work the same way we already know Wanda's illusion spells work, so it derives exclusively from known precedent and introduces no new variables.
I don't need them to do flashbacks. They could just allude to it briefly in dialogue. It's a minor matter that needs only minor clarification -- like most story points that people online get into extended debates about.
Aaaaauughh!! They said the name! They said the name!
Erik Voss must be beside himself.
Erik Voss must be beside himself.
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As has happened more than once before Funko have released a massive spoiler in the form of an ad, that in this case confirms who Joe Locke and Aubrey Plaza are really playing.
The former won't come as a shock to anybody but the latter suggests a bigger future for her in the MCU beyond this series.
The former won't come as a shock to anybody but the latter suggests a bigger future for her in the MCU beyond this series.
Wican (obviously) and Death, girlfriend to both Thanos and Deadpool at various times.
That was wicked fun. I love a good escape room adventure, especially one focused on finding ingredients for an antidote under duress.
I loved the little teases of each of the witches' respective pasts and I look forward to learning more about what made them who they are now (especially as someone who doesn't know any of them from the comics).
Mrs. Hart, I'm sorry, Sharon, continues to be an outright delight and, of course, she's not really dead. If nothing else, her body will probably be at least reanimated because there's no way that's the last of her.
Kudos to Jac Shaefer and the rest of the writer's room. They know exactly who their audience are and they're already playing up all of the expected theories regarding Teen, Nicholas Scratch, and everyone's favorite boogeyman, Mephisto. I got a good kick out of that gag.
The only downside about this episode was the sheer lack of Aubrey Plaza. She better be back in full force in the next episode, damnit!
I loved the little teases of each of the witches' respective pasts and I look forward to learning more about what made them who they are now (especially as someone who doesn't know any of them from the comics).
Mrs. Hart, I'm sorry, Sharon, continues to be an outright delight and, of course, she's not really dead. If nothing else, her body will probably be at least reanimated because there's no way that's the last of her.
Kudos to Jac Shaefer and the rest of the writer's room. They know exactly who their audience are and they're already playing up all of the expected theories regarding Teen, Nicholas Scratch, and everyone's favorite boogeyman, Mephisto. I got a good kick out of that gag.
The only downside about this episode was the sheer lack of Aubrey Plaza. She better be back in full force in the next episode, damnit!
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It might be because I just watched that 90s show season 2. But Sharon feels like they just wrote her as Kitty. even more so than how she acted in Wandavision
Alice’s mother looked familiar, so I looked up the actor, Elizabeth Anweis. She played Cathrine Hamilton-Kane in CW’s Batwoman
Alice’s mother looked familiar, so I looked up the actor, Elizabeth Anweis. She played Cathrine Hamilton-Kane in CW’s Batwoman
That was an effective episode of TV, which has been a rarity for Disney+ MCU, as even when it's been good, it's (outside of Wandavision and She-Hulk) felt too wedded to the "six-hour movie" format. It was also - pretty transparently - an effort to save money by using a pretty simple set with minimal VFX.
There was nothing earth-shattering here, but it moved the story forward, and hinted at some important things for later. My only real issue is this is the kind of episode I'd love in an old 23-episode season, but I'm worried it will feel like a waste in retrospect.
There was nothing earth-shattering here, but it moved the story forward, and hinted at some important things for later. My only real issue is this is the kind of episode I'd love in an old 23-episode season, but I'm worried it will feel like a waste in retrospect.
They said each episode would homage a different witch-related story or movie. There was a bit of Hansel and Gretel here, but were the style of the house and the wardrobe change meant to evoke any particular production?
Are these all comics characters? I haven't heard of most of them.
Are these all comics characters? I haven't heard of most of them.
The only name I recognized from the comics was Jennifer Kale.
Jennifer Kale (Earth-616)
61 appearance(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 12 appearance(s) in handbook(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 5 minor appearance(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 6 mention(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 6 mention(s) in handbook(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 56 image(s) of Jennifer Kale...
marvel.fandom.com
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https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Alice_Gulliver_(Earth-616)The only name I recognize from the comics was Jennifer Kale.
Jennifer Kale (Earth-616)
61 appearance(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 12 appearance(s) in handbook(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 5 minor appearance(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 6 mention(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 6 mention(s) in handbook(s) of Jennifer Kale (Earth-616) 56 image(s) of Jennifer Kale...