After TLJ, Is "Franchise Fatigue' now Plaguing Star Wars?

[Trekkin]

Point is you're comparing Feige's past with other studios in completely different situations and structures, to that of his highly successful Marvel Studios with Disney.

It’s apples to oranges!...assuming you forget that Phase 1 (barring Avengers) was also made under those conditions. As was Spider-Man Homecoming. Sorta.

Funny thing about Feige’s pre-Disney output: looking at his positions on them, he arguably had greater and more direct control over those individual projects then he does now. Hell, he actually described himself as a fairly hands-off guy. Writing and directing isn’t his job.


Also: my ‘point’ was the absurdity of claiming that producing one (possible) disappointment will get one sacked, when your go-to example of a success completely contradicts that.

In fact, the situation with Feige and Arad kinda highlights why your ‘reasoning’ is just so...off. Because in spite of the string of bad decisions, Marvel didn’t sack Arad due to bad BO/reviews etc. He edged himself out due to just being a bad manager. He couldn’t cooperate with the people working for him, obstructed projects due to sheer stubborness, and refused to follow advice.

We haven’t heard anything like that from Star Wars. Everyone involved certainly heeded Kasdan, for better or worse.



(I’d also like to note that - regardless of appearances - I don’t hate Arad and Perlmutter. They made their share of decisions that I didn’t like, but Marvel as a whole probably would have folded decades ago without them. We certainly wouldn’t have had the MCU. Whatever their flaws, they deserve a fair share of props.)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We saw Obi-Wan and Yoda take a very cowardly reaction to their failure and run away.

That's just completely wrong. @DarKush already rebutted this. To what he said upthread on the subject, I'll add the following.

It was Ob-Wan's idea to bravely return to the Jedi Temple and reprogram the signal to try to save any remaining Jedi who might otherwise be drawn into the trap there. Yoda tried to destroy Sidious, but he was not strong enough. Obi-Wan confronted and defeated Anakin. Obi-Wan let Anakin live, and it was a good thing for the galaxy that he did, since it was Anakin who would eventually destroy Sidious. Having done literally all they could directly engaging the enemy, Yoda and Obi-Wan retreated to cultivate the opportunity that they had been given with Luke and Leia. As we know in Rebels "Twin Suns," at some point in the interim Obi-Wan came to believe that it was Luke, not Anakin, who was the Chosen One. Yoda's and Obi-Wan's devotion to the Force were critical in both the defeat the Emperor and in how the Jedi Order survived the Empire. They weren't cowards. They were fully devoted to the Force and gave everything that had to the Jedi Order.

 

[USS Firefly]

I

That's just completely wrong. @DarKush already rebutted this. To what he said upthread on the subject, I'll add the following.

It was Ob-Wan's idea to bravely return to the Jedi Temple and reprogram the signal to try to save any remaining Jedi who might otherwise be drawn into the trap there. Yoda tried to destroy Sidious, but he was not strong enough. Obi-Wan confronted and defeated Anakin. Obi-Wan let Anakin live, and it was a good thing for the galaxy that he did, since it was Anakin who would eventually destroy Sidious. Having done literally all they could directly engaging the enemy, Yoda and Obi-Wan retreated to cultivate the opportunity that they had been given with Luke and Leia. As we know in Rebels "Twin Suns," at some point in the interim Obi-Wan came to believe that it was Luke, not Anakin, who was the Chosen One. Yoda's and Obi-Wan's devotion to the Force were critical in both the defeat the Emperor and in how the Jedi Order survived the Empire. They weren't cowards. They were fully devoted to the Force and gave everything that had to the Jedi Order.

I agree, and that is why I am dissapointed in Luke in the sequels

 

[DarKush]

Same happened in the EU. We just didn't see it unfold like it, but the films still showcase similar struggles. I guess since the Rebel victory meant nothing, they shouldn't bother fighting?

And, I want characters to feel real, living and breathing, and relatable. It might be fiction, but writers still strive to make characters as real as possible. One of the biggest places I will always struggle with in watching a film is if I find characters relatable or not. I certainly didn't connect with Han at all in the OT, and connected better with him due to TFA and Solo than I ever did from prior material.

I have not enjoyed films because I didn't connect with characters in any way, "Fight Club" being my chief example. I love Star Trek and Lord of the Rings because Spock and Aragorn as characters resonate with me on a deep, profound and very personal level. Luke is the same way, and now, seeing that character older, but still struggling with a sense of failure and mistake, I love that. I connect with that in a huge way. Because, now, Luke isn't some great heroic Jedi that I could never be. He is someone very relatable, connectable and flawed. There is a wonderful symmetry in how I view myself, and where I'm at in life, and how I connected with Obi-Wan and now Luke.

I'm sorry that you don't see it the same way. I truly am. Because, in some weird way, the films took on a different meaning for me as I got older because of this experience. And, less I sound like a pretentious jerk, I am sorry because I truly want the experience to be shared and not just my own. But, I know of no other way to express it

I disagree about the EU. Certainly all the OT heroes faced challenges and all of them failed, but not to the degree they have in the sequel films. They even got one final book (which I didn't read) that let them have one final adventure together, unlike the sequels which denied us a reunion of the big three all on screen together at the same time. In the EU, the New Republic became the Galactic Alliance, but it wasn't destroyed until over a century later in the Legacy comics, and even then I think it came back by the end of that run. The Empire became the Imperial Remnant and was held at bay until the Legacy comics. So, the win in the OT was more decisive and more apparent. The EU also diversified the threats for the heroes, creating alien invaders largely immune to the Force, a whole Sith civilization, a dark side manifestation in Abeloth, and the insectoid, mind-controlling Killik. These were different than the Rule of Two Sith. So when we did get Rule of Two Sith again, after the Yuuzhan Vong and the Killiks it felt fresher and like a welcome return more than just retreading what came before. Plus Lumiya and Caedus were much better villains than Snoke and Kylo Ren. They had better motivations, better detailed histories (especially Lumiya) and the reading audience likely knew some of that history and it how it shaped Lumiya's actions, unlike Snoke, who we basically know nothing about except he likes golden slippers.

I also like movies that have characters that resonate with me. Sometimes I can just appreciate, or attempt to appreciate the structure of a story if the characters aren't great, but it is very hard to be wowed by the FX of say the Star Wars sequels when they mistreat the OT characters and have thus far done a poor job with the sequel heroes.

The films have also taken on a different meaning for me as well now that I am older. And Luke for example was a person I could aspire to, someone tempted by the darkness but he fought against it. He had idealism, self-discipline, courage, and love for his family and friends. But to see the sulking, broken old Luke from TLJ who exhibited few of those OT traits wasn't heartwarming for me. Sometimes I want to see characters who are greatly challenged and rise to meet (if not always defeat) those challenges. I don't need Star Wars to turn into a therapy session. Star Wars started out as escapist fare and now it's just another rumination on defeat, failure, and the encroachment of age and death. And this is more prevalent because the OT characters remained the draw and it wasn't counterbalanced enough by the young, idealistic, aspirational new heroes. Though if we've seen the fates of the OT heroes, I can only shudder about what some future Rian Johnson will have in store for whoever makes it out of Episode IX.

I don't think that every movie has to have happy endings. I'm a big horror film fan, but Star Wars is a brand powered by hope, so with Star Wars I do want to see our heroes challenged but ultimately overcome those challenges, without falling so deeply into pits of self-pity and/or self-loathing. I mean they hammered that word home in both Rogue One and TLJ, yet the sequels have put little faith in it, thus far, at least where the OT heroes are concerned.

 

[BillJ]

I know there seems to be hate for the EU, but the EU did provide some clues on how to age the OT heroes and retain the essence of those characters as we knew them in the OT.

I don't have any real hate of what I've read of the EU. But, they had thousands of pages to flesh out the characters. We have three two-hour movies to update what came before, and to introduce new characters.

I can definitely understand not liking the material (see me and Star Trek: Discovery), but it is an entirely different ballgame to want people to lose their jobs (and I'm sure there's even a fringe group of fans that would want to see harm come Kennedy's way).

 

[Campe]

(and I'm sure there's even a fringe group of fans that would want to see harm come Kennedy's way).

I’m sure. Rian Johnson got death threats, after all.

 

[DarKush]

I don't have any real hate of what I've read of the EU. But, they had thousands of pages to flesh out the characters. We have three two-hour movies to update what came before, and to introduce new characters.

I can definitely understand not liking the material (see me and Star Trek: Discovery), but it is an entirely different ballgame to want people to lose their jobs (and I'm sure there's even a fringe group of fans that would want to see harm come Kennedy's way).

You're right that the EU had lots of pages to flesh out characters, but the thing is Disney-Lucasfilm has possession of all that character work and also that alternate future from the EU to draw from. The heavy lifting had already been done. And in some ways Disney does either take or were IMO inspired by the EU, when it comes to the First Order (Imperial Remnant), Kylo Ren (Jacen), Rey (Jaina), the New Republic, and likely other things I just didn't catch.

I do think there is a grouping together of all Star Wars critics which isn't fair. I have not called for Kennedy's firing, though I am not a fan of her stewardship. I don't think the performance of Solo should result in Kennedy losing her job, but I would like it to have her and Lucasfilm reassess their strategy and also go back to the drawing board on how to make the new characters and stories better. I agree with you that there probably is a twisted fringe group out there that take things to the extreme, but not every critic is in that group.

 

[BillJ]

I’m sure. Rian Johnson got death threats, after all.

I didn't realize that. I'm not much of a follower of the hard core Star Wars fandom.

 

[BillJ]

You're right that the EU had lots of pages to flesh out characters, but the thing is Disney-Lucasfilm has possession of all that character work and also that alternate future from the EU to draw from. The heavy lifting had already been done. And in some ways Disney does either take or were IMO inspired by the EU, when it comes to the First Order (Imperial Remnant), Kylo Ren (Jacen), Rey (Jaina), the New Republic, and likely other things I just didn't catch.

I tend to think there is a Catch-22 to working on franchises like this. You stay too close to the source material, you have a group of fans screaming that it isn't original (once again, see me and Star Trek: Discovery ). You stray too far away, and you have another group of fans screaming that they are betraying the source material.

It is a very fine line to walk for creators.

 

[Campe]

I didn't realize that. I'm not much of a follower of the hard core Star Wars fandom.

Sadly, yes.

I follow this stuff closely right around the release of a film then my fandom drops off a bit. I remember reading about this right after the release of TLJ. I’m usually pretty oblivious to any of this kind of stuff. But this turn of events? This bothers me. A lot. I get passionate fans. But if those people are going to let their passions allow them to make threats like this? Maybe they need to find something else to do with their lives.

 

[BillJ]

As far as Luke goes, I had no real issue with him going into hiding. He lost control at a pivotal moment with Ben Solo. He knows what happened to the galaxy when his father had the same awesome power and fell to the Dark Side.

Luke saw himself as protecting the galaxy, because he wasn't sure he could control the power he wielded.

 

[DigificWriter]

I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 8 and have always loved Yoda, but anyone trying to claim that he didn't go into self-exile because of failure is trying to sugar-coat his actions. Period.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 8 and have always loved Yoda, but anyone trying to claim that he didn't go into self-exile because of failure is trying to sugar-coat his actions. Period.

Not really IMO

Yoda may have failed in the sense he couldn’t kill Sidious. But at that point, Yoda didn’t have any serious shot at Sidious again. Now that Sidious knew he and Kenobi were alive (“Master Yoda...you survived”) there was no way he wasn’t going to be surrounded by a cadre of elite protection. When Yoda left, there was no fully formed Rebellion; no backup besides Kenobi. If he and Kenobi dies, it’s over; there is no one to protect the twins and train either or to help defeat Sidious, and help the Rebellion when the time was right. Every odd was stacked against him, and it would have the definition of suicide to try and attempt to take down Sidious soon after his initial duel. Discretion is the better part of valor. They would have done little to no good and maybe gone out in a blaze of glory, but the Empire would have remained and Sidious most likely would have killed him in a rematch. If you read the novelization of ROTS, it gives insight that Yoda realizes mid duel how much the Sith adapted, the Jedi did not, and that he literally was not strong enough to defeat Sidious; but he foresees a hope through the force and later realized at the twins birth it was them.

Luke has no of those reasons; it’s made clear in the movie he didn’t go to exile to train another Jedi or buy time and meditate to grow stronger and take down Kylo; he made it clear to Rey he came there to be alone and die and take the Order down with him (by not training any more Jedi).

For the record, you’ve been telling quite of few posters they're wrong and/or implying their opinion is not valid. That’s usually not a good way to get others to consider your side of things or get on their positive side. Just sayin’

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think that every movie has to have happy endings. I'm a big horror film fan, but Star Wars is a brand powered by hope, so with Star Wars I do want to see our heroes challenged but ultimately overcome those challenges, without falling so deeply into pits of self-pity and/or self-loathing. I mean they hammered that word home in both Rogue One and TLJ, yet the sequels have put little faith in it, thus far, at least where the OT heroes are concerned.

After I see Episode IX and the way the story ends, I'll come to my conclusion. For now, I stand by what I wrote, that Luke's and Han's reactions make sense from a deeply personal POV, and that they responded in a realistic way. The fact that both Luke and Han decided, on their own accord, to go back and face their failure, personified in Ben, and accept the consequences, whatever they might be.

It was Ob-Wan's idea to bravely return to the Jedi Temple and reprogram the signal to try to save any remaining Jedi who might otherwise be drawn into the trap there. Yoda tried to destroy Sidious, but he was not strong enough. Obi-Wan confronted and defeated Anakin. Obi-Wan let Anakin live, and it was a good thing for the galaxy that he did, since it was Anakin who would eventually destroy Sidious. Having done literally all they could directly engaging the enemy, Yoda and Obi-Wan retreated to cultivate the opportunity that they had been given with Luke and Leia. As we know in Rebels "Twin Suns," at some point in the interim Obi-Wan came to believe that it was Luke, not Anakin, who was the Chosen One. Yoda's and Obi-Wan's devotion to the Force were critical in both the defeat the Emperor and in how the Jedi Order survived the Empire. They weren't cowards. They were fully devoted to the Force and gave everything that had to the Jedi Order.

Perhaps coward is a poor term, but I certainly feel like their choices were not the only ones that could have been done in the face of the Empire.

 

[DigificWriter]

Yoda didn't send himself into exile because he failed to kill Palpatine; he sent himself into exile because of the overall destruction of the Jedi at Palpatine's hand, which was precipitated by his own personal failure to sense the truth of what was really going on.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh, yeah. One of the reasons that Obi-Wan was on Tatooine, besides looking after Luke, was to learn to commune with Qui-Gon's Force ghost. Those were specific instructions from Yoda to Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS, to develop this hitherto unknown Jedi ability.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, yeah. One of the reasons that Obi-Wan was on Tatooine, besides looking after Luke, was to learn to commune with Qui-Gon's Force ghost. Those were specific instructions from Yoda to Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS, to develop this hitherto unknown Jedi ability.

I'm not questioning that they don't have their reasons. I am simply raising the question, albeit poorly, is that the only option for Obi-Wan and Yoda? Also, that they modeled behaviors for Luke to follow. And then, we're surprised he followed them.

 

[Samurai8472]

Yeah Han Solo was ALWAYS serious like in ESB:

Leia: "I love you."
Han: "I know."

oh...wait...

Sorry but have you ACTUALLY watch Star Wars?

He stopped being serious 30 minutes after his debut in "A New Hope"

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[CorporalCaptain]

... is that the only option for Obi-Wan and Yoda?

Given that the Jedi were all but wiped out, I'd say that it was the only option to go into seclusion. Neither were idle, though. From Rebels and TESB, we know that that Yoda was keeping watch on key players through the Force and even actively participating in key events through it from afar, at least by engaging in conversation.

Also, that they modeled behaviors for Luke to follow.

I can see the case for that.

And then, we're surprised he followed them.

Well, for the record, I haven't been among those complaining. I believe that Luke was probably right to go into seclusion. One of the key elements of the story of TLJ is that Rey has the chance to found a new school not overshadowed by the failures of the previous Jedi Order.

It's very much worth remembering that the single most important failure in the Jedi Order was not Yoda or Obi-Wan, but Anakin. Without Vader, Mace kills Sidious and the Empire doesn't happen. Padmé lives, and if Anakin keeps his faith in the Republic, he and Padmé can help try to turn it around, even if he has to leave the Jedi Order, and Luke and Leia have the chance of being born into an era of reform instead of civil war.

Anakin's failure and flaws cast a long shadow that extended even over Luke. As others have pointed out, Luke needed to sort that out. Rey is free of that legacy.

The way things played out, it's also worth remembering that in his seclusion Luke attained a previously unknown power. He was essentially able to project reality, and by the epilogue to TLJ it was evidently a demonstration that will inspire people all over the galaxy. Without his going into seclusion and instead remaining engaged and "plugged in," there's good reason to think it possible that that discovery wouldn't have happened.

 

[Campe]

^ This is so on point, I can't even tell you. When the prequels came out, GL called the saga The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. I liked to call it The Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Now, with the sequels, I think it can be called The Rise, Fall, Redemption and Legacy of Anakin Skywalker. His actions still have consequences, even twenty-plus years after his death. His actions had ramifications for the universe that couldn't be ignored. Sidious' rise to power and taking Anakin as his apprentice caused a vacuum that allowed for Snoke to come into play and even moreso create Kylo Ren. Han, Luke and Leia were unable to stop Snoke. Ben Solo fell to the dark side. Luke decided that his training the Jedi could only cause exacerbate the situation, and Han and Leia, torn by the fall of their son, split up and went back to the lives that they knew because of grief. Finding Rey, someone who is outside of all of this family drama, who can take things back to the basics and not be weighed down by things from the past, is the only way to end this tragedy. Han tried to end it on his own. He fell. Luke realizes this point (with Yoda's help) and realizes the only way the galaxy can break this vicious cycle is to allow this tiny little band of Resistance fighters to survive to fight another day. He knows going to Crait in person will end in death quickly, because maybe a Jedi can't take that kind of firepower for real, but being able to sacrifice himself for his friends by using all of his power, is the only way he can finally right his father's wrongs and save his nephew in the process (what that looks like, I don't know).

Obviously, Leia played a big part in all of this in Trevorrow's draft of Episode IX. It was to be Carrie's movie after all. But now, that's changed.