After TLJ, Is "Franchise Fatigue' now Plaguing Star Wars?

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

I'm not questioning that they don't have their reasons. I am simply raising the question, albeit poorly, is that the only option for Obi-Wan and Yoda? Also, that they modeled behaviors for Luke to follow. And then, we're surprised he followed them.

No it wasn’t. But their other option was to run in guns blazing metaphorically speaking and go out in a blaze of glory. They were humble enough to recognize they are neither strong enough to defeat the whole Empire, nor was the time right; the rebellion was in an infancy if that. Obi Wan’s actions make this clear in ANH; the time was finally right; they had every intention of striking back when Luke was ready and the flames of the Rebellion were stoked. Again, contrast this Luke’s attitude in TLJ; he wanted the Jedi to end, he was going to die on that island and he was not coming back to help. It’s nothing like Yoda and Obi Wan. Otherwise Yoda would have said buzz off to Luke, the Jedi are done, and I’m not helping. Goodbye and good luck.

I’m not saying I completely disliked Luke’s arc; I loved his final stand and it provided the lesson that even if we are stubborn in our wrong course, we can find ways to fix it. Just his initial attitudes were so jarring and a bit off putting, and nothing like Yodas and Obi Wan’s disposition; that’s all

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Yoda didn't send himself into exile because he failed to kill Palpatine; he sent himself into exile because of the overall destruction of the Jedi at Palpatine's hand, which was precipitated by his own personal failure to sense the truth of what was really going on.

And again, it made him realize it wasn’t the *time* to finish this, if he could even at all (ROTS novel describes both Yoda and Sidious feeling very old and tired after their dual; it was literally the last hurrah of two aging Force titans on the opposite ends of the spectrum). This wasn’t cowardly, nor like Luke’s attitude at all.

 

[DigificWriter]

And again, it made him realize it wasn’t the *time* to finish this, if he could even at all (ROTS novel describes both Yoda and Sidious feeling very old and tired after their dual; it was literally the last hurrah of two aging Force titans on the opposite ends of the spectrum). This wasn’t cowardly, nor like Luke’s attitude at all.

Luke retreats because of failure, just as Yoda did.

The only difference is that Luke learned a vastly different lesson - and drew a very different conclusion - from his failure.

The act of failing and the decisions made as a result of that failure don't diminish either Yoda or Luke's heroism in any way, no matter how much people try and spin it that way.

 

[Set Harth]

I did watch the Boba Fett cartoon which was kinda cool. (But I no longer have a VCR, so...)

FYI the cartoon is on the Blu-ray set of I-VI.

It's starting to get ridiculous with rumors about a Bosch movie and crap like that.

Hieronymus Bosch?

I'd buy that for a dollar!

 

[fireproof78]

The act of failing and the decisions made as a result of that failure don't diminish either Yoda or Luke's heroism in any way, no matter how much people try and spin it that way.

This lesson is the one that needs to be reiterated. No matter what happens in TLJ, Luke's acts of heroism are not somehow undone by those actions. He suffered a personal failure and loss, on the heals of the fact that the Order had failed previously. At some point in time, a question needs to be asked "Is this a problem with the Jedi way itself?"

 

[BillJ]

This lesson is the one that needs to be reiterated. No matter what happens in TLJ, Luke's acts of heroism are not somehow undone by those actions. He suffered a personal failure and loss, on the heals of the fact that the Order had failed previously. At some point in time, a question needs to be asked "Is this a problem with the Jedi way itself?"

But muh heroez!!!

 

[fireproof78]

But muh heroez!!!

Disney hates your heroes!!!!!!!!

*sighs*

Well, for the record, I haven't been among those complaining. I believe that Luke was probably right to go into seclusion. One of the key elements of the story of TLJ is that Rey has the chance to found a new school not overshadowed by the failures of the previous Jedi Order.

It's very much worth remembering that the single most important failure in the Jedi Order was not Yoda or Obi-Wan, but Anakin. Without Vader, Mace kills Sidious and the Empire doesn't happen. Padmé lives, and if Anakin keeps his faith in the Republic, he and Padmé can help try to turn it around, even if he has to leave the Jedi Order, and Luke and Leia have the chance of being born into an era of reform instead of civil war.

Anakin's failure and flaws cast a long shadow that extended even over Luke. As others have pointed out, Luke needed to sort that out. Rey is free of that legacy.

The way things played out, it's also worth remembering that in his seclusion Luke attained a previously unknown power. He was essentially able to project reality, and by the epilogue to TLJ it was evidently a demonstration that will inspire people all over the galaxy. Without his going into seclusion and instead remaining engaged and "plugged in," there's good reason to think it possible that that discovery wouldn't have happened.

^ This is so on point, I can't even tell you. When the prequels came out, GL called the saga The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. I liked to call it The Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Now, with the sequels, I think it can be called The Rise, Fall, Redemption and Legacy of Anakin Skywalker. His actions still have consequences, even twenty-plus years after his death. His actions had ramifications for the universe that couldn't be ignored. Sidious' rise to power and taking Anakin as his apprentice caused a vacuum that allowed for Snoke to come into play and even moreso create Kylo Ren. Han, Luke and Leia were unable to stop Snoke. Ben Solo fell to the dark side. Luke decided that his training the Jedi could only cause exacerbate the situation, and Han and Leia, torn by the fall of their son, split up and went back to the lives that they knew because of grief. Finding Rey, someone who is outside of all of this family drama, who can take things back to the basics and not be weighed down by things from the past, is the only way to end this tragedy. Han tried to end it on his own. He fell. Luke realizes this point (with Yoda's help) and realizes the only way the galaxy can break this vicious cycle is to allow this tiny little band of Resistance fighters to survive to fight another day. He knows going to Crait in person will end in death quickly, because maybe a Jedi can't take that kind of firepower for real, but being able to sacrifice himself for his friends by using all of his power, is the only way he can finally right his father's wrongs and save his nephew in the process (what that looks like, I don't know).

Excellent points both of you.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

This lesson is the one that needs to be reiterated. No matter what happens in TLJ, Luke's acts of heroism are not somehow undone by those actions. He suffered a personal failure and loss, on the heals of the fact that the Order had failed previously. At some point in time, a question needs to be asked "Is this a problem with the Jedi way itself?"

Yes and no.

If you mean the twilight of the Republic era Jedi, then yes. No attachments, suppression of emotions, respectable but blind allegiance to a corrupt Republic...that sounds like out of balance to me.

Obviously it’s not canon anymore, but the Old Republic Jedi we’re not always that way. They had wives and husbands, and seemed to respect the threat the dark side had more, keeping a humble view. Mace Windu (“I don’t think the Sith could have returned without us knowing”) they were not.

I think it’s more of what Luke said; whenever there’s light, darkness will inevitably come around and vice versa, and if anything it’s The Force that is responsible; if you view the Force as a bit omnipotent and self aware; or if you view it as an abstract, then the Force bears less culpability as it’s a natural cycle.

Again, going back to old EU...it makes sense now why Kreia (Darth Traya) from the KOTOR era wanted to literally create a wound in the Force so big that the Force...well...died. She was tired of the suffering and back and forth of light v. dark cataclysms. I think, with the view of the Force TLJ gave us, it would be quite interesting to explore a villain concept like that in the new canon.

 

[N-121973]

Getting back to the original subject of franchise fatigue for just a moment, this thread seems the perfect place to bring something up that I've been feeling for sometime. I notice a common theme on threads like this - people keep talking about how franchises need to be 'rested' or 'rebooted' or how they'll go away for a few years and WHEN they come back...
I'm going to be Sacrilegious and ask the question 'Why should these franchises go on and on and on and on?' Why can't franchises just stop producing new material, not merely rested/rebooted, retooled but stop? I don't think there would be anything lost if we have a finite number of Star Wars films or episodes/films of Star Trek. I think the need to churn out an endless number of entries and to diversify it to satisfy the fans is at the heart of the problem. Imagine if you will that Star Wars was comprised Episodes I to VI, no Holiday Special, no Caravan of Courage/Battle for Endor or cartoons, no EU or Episodes VII+. Where merchandise of a creative nature (there'd obviously be clothes, lunch boxes, toys 'making of' books etc) would be limited to novelisations of the films & the Marvel Comics from the 70s & 80s, would that be such a bad place to live? I say no, and I'm speaking as a huge Star Wars fan who likes all bar one of the new films - TLJ. If you asked me Star Wars would be all the more precious for it.
In the old days the problem was that there wasn't enough material from certain properties. The original Battlestar Galactica folded after only one season (Galactica 1980 notwithstanding) and there were a number of films that could have yielded sequels but didn't. Now we've jumped to the opposite extreme and we possibly get too much.
By the way, I obviously know the business reason for producing more and more new things vis a vis merchandising.

 

[fireproof78]

By the way, I obviously know the business reason for producing more and more new things vis a vis merchandising.

I am a person who generally doesn't want things to end, so I'm going to disagree and hopefully be as clear as a I possibly can.

Obviously, there is the business side. From an artistic point of view, that's hardly justifiable, but business is business and companies like a safe bet. So, I'll not begrudge the owners of Star Wars trying to make money on their property.

For my part, it isn't just the money. It's the opportunity to see more than just my vision of Star Wars going forward. Books are fun, and I enjoy them greatly, as are video games. But, those are not quite as immersive, quite as intensive as a film experience.

It also allows those are talented in those areas (production, set design, concept art, directors, etc.) to produce art and grant a unique POV to a world. I certainly would not have created Episode 1 the way that it was, and the visual designs within the Star Wars universe are richer for that production.

The more variety of stories and designs that are introduced in to these worlds, the more people can be drawn in and share them. It allows individuals who may not enjoy the original Star Wars but might like a war style story like Rogue One. It's a wide variety that enriches the overall world, even if I don't like every single film or book or video game. Just because The Phantom Menace or Empire Strikes Back isn't for me doesn't mean that someone out there enjoys it and brings their own interest to the franchise.