About Tuvix:

[Guy Gardener]

He didn't have to think ahead.

He just had to say "Computer:Erase program".

Which is what the EMH did in Equinoix to erase the Equinox's EMH.

That was the real equation.

Who was more important, Tuvix or the EMH?

I mean sure he probably wouldn't kill a flesh and blood Doctor, but frakk it, the EMH is not flesh and blood.

Execute the ###### fucker.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Tuvix doesn't get to tell people shit.

Even later in Riddles when Tuvok had been brain wiped and spent all his time baking cakes, it was Neelix who told Mr Vulcan to relent to the Doctor's knife and allow his new personality to be cut out.

This was the internal monologue of Tuvix made manifest.

Tuvok wanted to run and Neelix wanted to face the music.

Doesn't that seem backewards?

Of course the real lesson here is that Janeway doen't learn shit.

Tuvok was just asked to submit to lobotomisation.

She should have known that an armed guard was needed to drag him to sick bay and that the Doctor couldn't be trusted to execute "Nuvok" if he said something girly like "Pleaee, please don't kill me."

Fool me once?

I agree with the substance of what you're saying. This episode reminded me a lot of Tuvix. The new Tuvok felt like a distinct individual from old Tuvok and he had a potential for enjoying life a great deal more than the taciturn freakasaurus Tuvok. People would have found him also more likeable. In fact it was even more of a crime to end the life of that Tuvok so that the ship got his tactical officer back. It's like the people are considered by their contribution to the ship like ants in an anthill and not like individuals with feelings and dimension (if you prick us... blah blah blah...). It's like they've all been assimilated by the borg.

 

[Melakon]

It was pretty obvious how the episode had to end. No one saying Tuvix should live would actually believe the show would fire Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips in the middle of the season and suddenly hire Tom Wright.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was pretty obvious how the episode had to end. No one saying Tuvix should live would actually believe the show would fire Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips in the middle of the season and suddenly hire Tom Wright.

This is why you are a little bit wrong, not a lot wrong but a little bit wrong.

Tuvix was the 24th episode of a 26 episode season.

Yes Tuvix could only last one episode.

But... What if Tuvix was the 26th episode of the season and not the 24th?

Tuvix could have ended on a Cliffhanger, without a resolution and it would have been 4 to 6 months before we knew for sure if Tuvok and Neelix were back.

Was Basics really all that awesome?

Hell. The 25th episode Resolutions would have been a good final episode for season 2 as well.

Considering Resolutions could have lasted beginning to end for at least 9 months, turning it into a double episode and sticking the hiatus in between, it would make the time line more believable.

Actually, in Resolutions, Under cCptain Tuvok for 9 months...Wouldn't that have been an express opportunity for Suder to become rehabilitated enough to be allowed a little liberty?

 

[DonIago]

I still think it would have been poetic justice if after forcing Tuvix to undergo the procedure, said procedure had failed and all three of them had been lost.

And I still think it's unfortunate that anyone seems to assume the procedure was a sure thing.

And to this day I don't think anyone's ever answered the question of how long Tuvix has to live under the threat of being wiped out of existence before he's granted the right to exist. If the Doctor finds a solution 20 years after the accident does Tuvix get ripped away from his family and friends? If that's the case, perhaps it would have been kinder to lock him in a stasis tube for that time.

 

[Melakon]

This is why you are a little bit wrong, not a lot wrong but a little bit wrong.

Tuvix was the 24th episode of a 26 episode season.

Yes Tuvix could only last one episode.

But... What if Tuvix was the 26th episode of the season and not the 24th?

Tuvix could have ended on a Cliffhanger, without a resolution and it would have been 4 to 6 months before we knew for sure if Tuvok and Neelix were back.

Was Basics really all that awesome?

Hell. The 25th episode Resolutions would have been a good final episode for season 2 as well.

Considering Resolutions could have lasted beginning to end for at least 9 months, turning it into a double episode and sticking the hiatus in between, it would make the time line more believable.

Actually, in Resolutions, Under cCptain Tuvok for 9 months...Wouldn't that have been an express opportunity for Suder to become rehabilitated enough to be allowed a little liberty?

All right, I'll give you that. I didn't check "Tuvix" placement in the episode list. So if it had been a season ender, a few weeks later Russ and Phillips might have discovered they were being giving their walking papers. Which would have left a casting slot open.

I was never thrilled with Seska's reveal as a Cardassian spy, and it was only because I thought Cardassian makeup made attractive women look ugly. I liked Martha Hackett, and would have preferred she keep the Bajoran makeup, and that Seska hadn't allied with the Kazon and been killed off.

Then, since Russ and Phillips were being fired, Wright and Hackett could have been the new cast members.

But I never really liked Tuvix as a character.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

M, I LOVE YOUR TUVIX AVATAR!

 

[Nebusj]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Tuvok and Neelix were of more use to a ship with only 150-ish onboard and no way of sourcing replacement personnel, than Tuvix alone was.

Sorry, but I really detest that line of reasoning. I can only hope this is not something you or the majority of human population lives by. That would be a sad world to live in.

Well, it is a shorthand statement of the idea behind utilitarianism, itself a respectable and rather serious way to form a rational theory of ethical behavior. It requires serious thought, however, in order to address the problem of balancing major harm to few people versus minor benefit to many, and my impression is that it's never quite managed to find a fully satisfactory balance. (A utilitarian may well have a different view.)

And science fiction has tragically taken the shorthand rough-idea of utilitarianism as a default ethical basis, probably because it sounds phenomenally reasonable at a glance (it can even be discussed mathematically, as a matter of finding the maximum happiness of society) which appeals to folks who incline towards the equations-and-reasoning end of science fiction. Also it can justify pretty well doing horrible things as Making The Tough Choices (cf, ``The Cold Equations'', its imitators, and its flame wars) without necessarily forcing the protagonist to feel oneself unethical.

(I admit I find utilitarian reasoning very useful to a point, especially in discussions of things where the harm and benefit can be fairly removed from matters of, well, human dignity. If we're reasoning about the demolishing of a neighborhood to improve city services, or how to organize the school system, or what safety and clean-air regulations an industry must obey, it's hard to think of a sounder starting point. If we're reasoning about killing an inoffensive person, I have to object. And somewhere in-between those is a dividing point I doubt I could describe in a logically consistent manner, but it is there.)

 

[Melakon]

I think the biggest problem with the story is how it presents Tuvix's abilities. He seems to get the best traits from both men, but not any of their deficiencies, and is presented as superior to either in competency.

His tactical skills and sense of logic aren't compromised by Neelix's more carefree approach to life, so he's really being presented as some sort of superbeing. The script stacks the deck in his favor to make him sympathetic.

I've not seen it in years, so maybe I'm misremembering.

 

[urbandefault]

Tuvix refused to do Janeway's weekly pedicure. "ENERGIZE!"

 

[Guy Gardener]

Before Tuvix, was that Tuvok's job or Neelixs?

 

[Melakon]

Probably Neelix', since Tuvok would see it as being unfaithful. And Neelix would paint the toenails with little murals.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I think what it came down to was everyone missed Tuvok and Neelix. I also think that the final straw for Janeway making her decision was when Kes came to her in tears about wanting Neelix back. She seems to have a soft spot for Kes. I agree with the person who said that Tuvix would have become obsessive towards Kes. He was already heading in that direction. I'm not saying what she did was right or wrong but I think it had to be done.

 

[Guy Gardener]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWAPzkm3W10[/yt]

So Mark Johnson doesn't know why he is having bad dreams about a mischievous hedgehog getting all up in his shit?

 

[borgboy]

I do really like this episode, because the moral issues are so complex, I can see both sides. I do think that Tuvix had a right to his own life, and that Janeway was morally wrong. But...would Voyager have been as strong and capable of surviving as a community without Tuvok and Neelix separately? What if everyone on Voyager, including Tuvix, would have died if Janeway had chosen differently?

I will say I liked Tuvix better than Neelix or Tuvok.

 

[Melakon]

So Mark Johnson doesn't know why he is having bad dreams about a mischievous hedgehog getting all up in his shit?

My pet theory is Mark hooked up with and married Harry's girlfriend Libby.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kes probably kept going back in time fiddling with events until Janeway finally killed Tuvix.

Of course that's me confusing Kes with Trance Gemini again.

 

[borgboy]

I guess we can blame a time traveling Kes for anything convenient.

I'd love to see a Myriad Universe novella where Janeway chose to let Tuvix live.

 

[Gov Kodos]

A Coke and A Fanta got mixed together, Janeway separated them. If Tuvok beamed up with a dog and turned into a TuDog, we shouldn't unmix it? TuDog being an individual, mind of a dog not withstanding?

 

[Melakon]

A Coke and A Fanta got mixed together. . .

. . .and tasted like crap.