About Tuvix:
- Thread starter Kobayshi Maru
- Start date
It seems a lot like the trolley problem:
Although in this case the train has already run over the two people and you're killing one to rewrite history and resurrect them, instead reacting in the moment of the accident. And you can hand the decision off to the survivor which I think changes the ethics of the situation.
You hit the nail on the head, for me. It was troubling for me that no one stood in defense of Tuvix and allowed Janeway to commit murder. We can defend her position and authority and motivation, but at the end of the day, the way it happened was dark, disturbing. Tuvix had the right to live, no matter how he was brought into the universe.
One member quoted Spock's "The needs of the many," as an argument. It would be horrifying and gross to suggest that people are subject to forfeit their life should a greater number deem it so. Spock said this in defense of his own willingness to sacrifice himself to save millions. Now imagine a scenario where Spock is, instead, aiming a phaser at a tearful, pleading ensign with a family. The ensign doesn't want to die, and though it may be cowardly of him, who would Spock be to take his life? Would he had still been so righteous in that situation?
I suspect Janeway won't be haunted for very long with her decision. I suspect she'll move on just fine and Tuvix will be relegated to little more than a forgotten Captain's Log.
What's Spock's motivation for having the phaser aimed at the Ensign? You seem to have left out why the Ensign is in danger. And Spock may not be the best example for this scenario. He's driven by logic, and will do the most logical thing to protect the ship and its mission.
He urged Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell. He knew they couldn't take Charlie Evans to Colony 5. He showed open dislike for Trelane. If the best thing to do to save the ship was to kill a hypothetical Ensign, Spock would have done it without any emotional distractions of an impassioned plea.
Kirk however, would have agonized over it.
2 movies later...
I never got that. Who is Spock to hand-pick his successor? Did Number One hand-pick Spock? Did Pike hand-pick Kirk?
I am guessing that Valeris was so brilliant, (first in her class) that she could have had any command she wanted. Spock was advising her to take this one and would have likely joined his personal recommendation (that has to count for something).
You don't get promoted for being brilliant.
Other than victory, you mostly get promoted for accepting orders well, and for giving orders well.
Rank is about managing staff as much as being staffed to a vital position.
Although?
Enterprise-A was 5 minutes from being decommissioned, so I doubt that he was talking about his post on the ship or even his position in Starfleet, but maybe he just wanted this girl to be as awesome as he was?
Other than victory, you mostly get promoted for accepting orders well, and for giving orders well.
Rank is about managing staff as much as being staffed to a vital position.
Although?
Enterprise-A was 5 minutes from being decommissioned, so I doubt that he was talking about his post on the ship or even his position in Starfleet, but maybe he just wanted this girl to be as awesome as he was?
Kim is currently in an odd little Canadian comedy about a bored wife becoming insane.
According to the novels, it was Spock and Saavik's wedding that Ensign Picard attended.
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Perhaps Spock meant as science officer.
Well.. that makes a lot of sense but also means that Valeris and Spock were much closer than the adoring pupil, proud teacher deal that I always saw it as. Closer as in many years, much trust. All of which makes it quite the tragedy. Perhaps they were close for years and then were separated by circumstance for a season during which Valeris fell in with a bad crowd?
You've got em hooked Garren, now reel em in... Why good Melakon, I believe the answers will be revealed in the next chapter of my thrilling epic Star Trek Fan Fiction, Into The Mirror Darker Than Darkly: The Tuvix Convulix... Coming soon! (or not.)
There is no argument that killing Tuvix was morally right, so if you're going to make the argument say it was pragmatically right. If killing Tuvix was morally right because it's saving two people by killing one, then hospitals should be going around killing people and murdering them to transplant their organs into their patients. But, you can argue that the odds of the entire ship being destroyed was lower with both Tuvok and Neelix than it was with Tuvix. That would be a Battlestar Galactica style justification, "Morality doesn't apply here, we're doing what we need to to preserve the human race".
If they had said that, maybe the episode would have been better, but they sort of handwaved the moral issues. Similitude did a much better job executing a similar moral issue. They didn't try to moralize it, they said "We need Trip more than we need you, and the human race is at stake, so we're going to kill you." It was honest and pragmatic, and it worked.
Janeway's decision was not moral, it was emotional. She cared about Tuvok and Neelix. And if they wanted to do that, the episode should have admitted it instead of handwaving the morality of the issue like they did.
If they had said that, maybe the episode would have been better, but they sort of handwaved the moral issues. Similitude did a much better job executing a similar moral issue. They didn't try to moralize it, they said "We need Trip more than we need you, and the human race is at stake, so we're going to kill you." It was honest and pragmatic, and it worked.
Janeway's decision was not moral, it was emotional. She cared about Tuvok and Neelix. And if they wanted to do that, the episode should have admitted it instead of handwaving the morality of the issue like they did.
Well if you believe in an absolute set of morals, sure.
Of course then everyone else would also have to believe in those same absolute set of morals or they are immoral, and why the hell would anyone want to be immoral?
Which would make how you think the centre of the universe and yard stick by which everything that thinks judges itself against.
Maybe it's not impossible that there is a moral argument to pull the man into pieces, but you are right that Janeway did not make it.
Of course then everyone else would also have to believe in those same absolute set of morals or they are immoral, and why the hell would anyone want to be immoral?
Which would make how you think the centre of the universe and yard stick by which everything that thinks judges itself against.
Maybe it's not impossible that there is a moral argument to pull the man into pieces, but you are right that Janeway did not make it.
