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A TOS (only) fan's reaction

It was, and is, a hit summer movie, and that's all.

When Star Trek XI was signed, the principal actors were not signed to a multi-picture deal, AFAIR. When the movie became a success, they were optioned for two more films. So in that sense, the fact that it was a hit summer movie did directly translate into two more Star Trek films. Had the movie flopped, I doubt those options would have been picked up.

I do think the movie had an effect in creating some interest in TOS. But that the success of the current movie paved the way for more Trek movies—even if "just" summer blockbuster style movies—is undeniable.
 
When Star Trek XI was signed, the principal actors were not signed to a multi-picture deal, AFAIR. When the movie became a success, they were optioned for two more films. So in that sense, the fact that it was a hit summer movie did directly translate into two more Star Trek films. Had the movie flopped, I doubt those options would have been picked up.

While I do imagine two sequels (and I'm hedging that that's all we'll see), there are two saliant points.

1) It's a 'sequel' mindset, not a franchise builder. A franchise has to do well OUTSIDE of just the movies themselves. There's been next to NO effort to rebuild the franchise of a whole, using the film as its core.

2) Godzilla (yes, that one) had a similar deal. Two promised sequels after the initial release, and never manifest.

But that the success of the current movie paved the way for more Trek movies—even if "just" summer blockbuster style movies—is undeniable.

Which is fine, so long as people keep their perspective. The Batman franchise was huge after Keaton's film, and look how it continued to flicker off... Now, that movie's been effectively 'replaced' in the franchise.

We'll see that with this Trek, which relies HEAVILY on eye-candy and 'hot young stars' to move it as product. Come four years down the line, when some actors (say, Uhura, most obviously) aren't the 'hot young stars' anymore, it'll be rebooted again. Maybe nuTNG, maybe just another start... but this is really just milking the popular parts of the franchise, NOT rebuilding it.
 
It simply doesn't aspire to be anything more than that.

For you.

Therin, he's got you here. JJ is on record about the goals of the movie, and is pretty damn derisive about how Trek is too 'cerebral' for most people (including himself) and was something for nerds only.

This movie was and is exactly what it was meant to be - 90 minutes of CGI, explosions, chicks in underwear, hot young stars, and marketing to make a popcorn-flavored hit. It did that very well, but please quit pretending that it either achived more depth, or was ever at all actually meant to.
 
I enoyed Star Trek: 2009 immensly. Loved it. Saw it...oooo 5 or 6 times, and I thought it was cool that a lot of it was an inversion of TWoK and that Spock got to do the Space, the final frontier bit

But

I agree that it is a big dumb summer movie. It is good at being what it is but it suffers from the same condition as most if not all new sci fi. Better aliens, better explosion, realistic looking spaceships and futeristic tech do not necessarily make better science fiction. Plot and character are more important than SFX and few people appreciate that anymore. I was also largely confused by the whole Spock/Uhura thing. Where did it come from? In TOS you could make a reasonable argument for Scotty/Uhura. I could, I suppose, see my way to Kirk/Uhura (protocol and necessity of command non-with standing) but Spock and Uhura seemd to come out of nowhere.

:vulcan: :wtf: Not that again! :brickwall:

You know, that makes it seem like you've never actually watched TOS, only the movies. Or you confuse TOS with ST V: The Final Frontier, which would be very disturbing, considering how abysmal the latter was.

Otherwise, you'd know that, in fact, you can make a reasonable argument for Spock/Uhura in TOS; Kirk/Uhura, so-so; but nowhere in TOS can you see any sort of relationship and barely any interaction between Scotty and Uhura, whose 'relationship' (if one can call it so) in ST V really came out of nowhere.
 
Therin, he's got you here.

How? Because I got more out of the film than you and he did?

JJ is on record about the goals of the movie, and is pretty damn derisive about how Trek is too 'cerebral' for most people (including himself) and was something for nerds only.

Sure. And despite that, he still gave us a film from which many fans have found the messages he left for us. Or some of us. He never said he was deliberately making a film with no emotion, message or nostalgia value. And plenty of us have found those things in it.

This movie was and is exactly what it was meant to be - 90 minutes of CGI, explosions, chicks in underwear, hot young stars, and marketing to make a popcorn-flavored hit. It did that very well, but please quit pretending that it either achived more depth, or was ever at all actually meant to.
I'm not pretending anything.

I'm only really annoyed that there are STILL some that, even after it was trounced by the awful "Revenge of the Fallen" swear it was the 'second coming of the franchise'... which it most clearly isn't.

Huh?

So ST XI would have to have beaten the "Transformers" sequel to prove itself as worthy?

Are the two films (and their franchises) even aimed at the same demographic?
 
How? Because I got more out of the film than you and he did?

You got things out of it that were neither there nor, more importantly, intended to be there. You projected on to this movie, and quite obviously so.

I'm not pretending anything.

Fooling yourself, perhaps? Tell me, did you find depth and deep meaning in Iron Man? Or are you incapable of accepting that most of us in the world really do just sometimes want to enjoy a popcorn flick without having a steak in the bucket too.

So ST XI would have to have beaten the "Transformers" sequel to prove itself as worthy?

That wasn't the point. The point was that the movie didn't 'glue people to the franchise' as was stated. The majority of movie-goers simply moved on, as they're want to do with a franchise like this.

Are the two films (and their franchises) even aimed at the same demographic?

Yes. College-Age males. Explicitly stated.
 
You got things out of it that were neither there nor, more importantly, intended to be there. You projected on to this movie, and quite obviously so.

Glad to be me! :bolian: :techman:

Also possible: you put up brick walls that prevented you from enjoying the movie, or relating to its messages.
 
Come now, surely Vance knows you better than you do!!!!

I do! Or this is something I've seen repeatedly by people who feel the need to defend their enjoyment of a movie, play, book, etc.. it has to be deeper, dammit! And if you don't see the deepness, you're not as a good as I am!

Me, on the other hand, often enjoys shallow fun. It's just I generally don't associate it with Star Trek.
 
JJ is on record about the goals of the movie, and is pretty damn derisive about how Trek is too 'cerebral' for most people (including himself) and was something for nerds only.

Not to disagree with you—he did and does say that. But remember, he's a consummate marketer. JJ is, in fact, quite an intelligent human being (regardless of what you think of his work). Moreover, he's quite the geek/nerd himself, even if he didn't choose to "geek out" on Star Trek. So you can be sure that there's a certain embellishment in his banter in order to make the movie more palatable for people who wouldn't normally consider themselves the target audience for a Trek movie.
 
So you can be sure that there's a certain embellishment in his banter in order to make the movie more palatable for people who wouldn't normally consider themselves the target audience for a Trek movie.

Oh I think he meant it, though I think the term he was more looking for was 'pretentious' with Trek than 'nerdy'. Trek's failing in the last few years was even when they were trying to be 'funny' they were still full of themselves. It was a hard watch, to be sure, which really only seemed to appeal to the techno-geeks among us.

After DS9, certainly, Trek wasn't fun. This movie, I'll give, certainly was for most people. I just think it came at too much expense. Trek certainly needed a pulse again.. .as brainy as it could get, Trek lacked heart and spirit for a long time. I just wish THAT infusion would carry over, but that's not happening either...
 
So ST XI would have to have beaten the "Transformers" sequel to prove itself as worthy?

Are the two films (and their franchises) even aimed at the same demographic?

Absolutely they are aimed at the same demographic. Otherwise they wouldn't have been budgeted at these levels.
 
nowhere in TOS can you see any sort of relationship and barely any interaction between Scotty and Uhura, whose 'relationship' (if one can call it so) in ST V really came out of nowhere.

I guess the early Bantam writers saw something in TOS (maybe during those moments when everybody else is off the ship, leaving Uhura and Scott on the bridge) that you didn't, since an extended Scotty/Uhura clinch was in one of the first Haldeman ST novels.
 
And if you don't see the deepness, you're not as a good as I am!

Well, I never said that, did I. The feeling I get is that it is you are saying, via your posts, that unless we all agree with you that there is no depth in ST XI, then we are not as good as you.

It's like we saw different movies. You're in the 5% who didn't (assuming the "Rotten Tomatoes" ratings are representative of public opinion). Nothing I say is going to make you enjoy this movie, and nothing you say will diminish my thorough enjoyment and appreciation of it.

With ST:TMP, it remains in my top two movies. But I've had much less troubling convincing non ST friends to go and catch ST XI than TMP.
 
With ST:TMP, it remains in my top two movies. But I've had much less troubling convincing non ST friends to go and catch ST XI than TMP.

:lol:

Hey, Vance. Lay off Therin. He's too cool. Seriously!

As much as I may personally dislike the movie, projection is a natural part of the artistic process. We each see what we see. To a large extent, it is beyond our control. Film is the ultimate Rorschach test.

Nonetheless, I feel confident in asserting that STXI was designed to hook a certain demographic, and was made with a lot of bubblegum and vim over thought and care; it's smart, but not clever; busy, but not layered; loud, but not spectacular; handsome, but not deep.

It's *a* kind of Star Trek, but not the kind that matters or means a lot, to me, and not the kind that really adds a whole lot to cinema or "the human mission", in my opinion. Still, it is what it is, and it's good that some people have taken something from it. In some respects, it only makes TMP look even more precious in retrospect.
 
Nope, not at all--it very clearly means "a self-aware machine capable of consciousness, volition and even a strangely emotionless form of frustration." I understood that at the ripe old age of nine--I may not have

I'm sorry, but...what's the difference between a "self-aware machine" and a self-aware grapefruit?

In what sense is this thing a "machine," and why does it matter that it is?

I mean, beyond the opportunity for Roddenberry et al to repeat some vapid platitudes about emotion and logic?

There's just nothing there that's even significant, much less interesting when one thinks about it in any detail. The script points regarding V'Ger are a litany of assertions that depend upon (as one early reviewer put it) the fact that no character ever really questions the bald statements of another regarding what's happening or why for the plot to progress at all.

An example of minor interest except that the coherence (such as it is) of the plot hinges upon it: Decker asserts that "Voyager Six disappeared into what they used to call a 'black hole' over three hundred years ago."

Well, of course we know what the Voyager series probes were (unlike the mythical "Nomad") and of course the few that really were launched were sailing along through space at the end of the 20th century at a relatively leisurely pace nowhere near the speed of light. Which means, for one thing, that there's an undiscovered black hole somewhere in the immediate vicinity of Earth and for another thing that we would somehow be able to determine from the still-functioning instruments aboard the gadget that it had a) encountered exactly such an object and b) "disappeared into it" - as opposed to just being destroyed outright by it.

The first is exceedingly unlikely and the second is preposterous. All we might possibly get back from one of those probes would be sudden loss of signal. One can imagine - that is, make up a story - that there might be some kind of indication from some (unspecified) kind from some instrument that might cause some physicist to speculate about the probe having encountered something anomalous...but nothing that would enable Decker or anyone else to announce as a matter of historical fact that the aforementioned magical thing happened.

It's a line of dialogue - like so much of what's said in the movie - that's nothing but hand waving. It's the same as saying "hocus-pocus." The writers simply had to be able to present something as an explanation for the nonsense that was occurring, and they settled on that. Countersigned, of course, by the "science advisors" on the film who apparently enjoyed being involved the movies immensely. It paid well and was terribly flattering. ;)

As to the nonsense of the basic premise of "V'ger" itself, I'll just defer to John Scalzi for the moment:


He's being kind (okay, actually, he's going for the laugh) - giving the raccoon Ecuador at least makes a kind of simplistic linear sense (it gets the raccoon off that traffic island, right); what the denizens of the machine planet are asserted to have done does not.

And, again, all of this pooh-bah and foolishness is in service of "dramatizing" (ahem) the profoundly important "message" that Emotions Are Good.

Why wonder that no one but Trekkies were impressed by this thing? Reflect instead upon how desperate we were for Trek to continue that Trekkies lept so eagerly to get at the Kool-Aid. Compared to that, minimizing the logical failins of the Abrams movie doesn't even constitute a short hop - and in exchange, this time we get some competent entertainment.
 
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I fail to see anything even resembling relevance in your first question. A self-aware grapefruit wouldn't mistake a starship for a life form and, while it may seek its creator on earth, there would be no significance in that creator being human nor in its initial inability to accept that fact. TMP took what was a rote "monster-of-the-week" concept from TOS and explored some pretty interesting thematic territory. I don't feel like typing it all out again but maybe I'll dig through some of my old posts and cut-and-paste. But hey, if you want a self-aware grapefruit (or pine cone) in need of a humanoid to complete itself, perhaps the actor who played the uber-nerd from "Dear John" can help you out. ;)

As far as the black hole line is concerned, of course it's hand waving. So what? It's a relatively minor plot point--not even that, it's throw-away piece of exposition that we easily could have done without in a movie that has much bigger fish to fry, unlike the red matter fueled black hole time warps of Trek XI, upon which more depends than upon William Carlos William's red wheelbarrow. I'm honestly amazed you would bring up such a niggling point here--in anyone else, I'd say it stinks of desperation.
 
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