A theory on Daedalus Class.

[Spot261]

Sorry, by superficially similar I was talking in terms of their mission profile, which was speculatively about viewing the daedalus as fulfilling much the sort of role we see later explorer type vessels in, whilst allowing for a small size ship and the Essex's stated crew numbers.

The Pike-Kirk issue might not also be as meaningful as it at first appears bear in mind. Just who were those extra personnel Kirk had on board? They might have been specialist researchers, additional security, redundancy on existing roles to allow for sickness/shore leave or simply the result of lessons learnt during Pike's era, in particular that 203 simply wasn't enough. 203 might have led to a very sparsely populated 1701, which would fit with the observation someone above made about her looking more spacious in Pike's time.

I'm not actually sold on this idea by the way, just a way of rationalising a scenario people have envisaged whilst keeping the model we know and love as being of the daedalus class.

I've not seen "Power Play" in a while, but does it explicitly state the Essex had a crew of 229, or that there were 229 people on board? The two scenarios might play out very differently if we imagine a large number of those being visiting personnel, passengers of some description, colonists being transported under less than ideal conditions, etc. This would be closer to my "head canon" (as opposed to my suggestion of the daedalus having very packed living conditions) where the model on Sisko's desk is in fact the deadalus which is a far smaller vessel than the NX.

 

[Timo]

What the Daedalus does is known only through the Essex: no other Daedalus is ever shown or described doing anything in canon. And we just plain don't know what the Essex was doing.

Separately, we don't know what the Essex looked like, and whether she was larger or smaller than Archer's ship. Or whether she was older or younger. That the type would be retired a decade after the loss of the Essex tells us nothing much, as Archer's ship type apparently also was retired very soon after its introduction, while other types have served for more than a century.

There really is no pattern to compare against, then. And since we know so little about the Pike/Kirk crew size issue, it is even more meaningful in establishing a lack of pattern, or in other words our inability to discern or discuss a pattern.

FWIW, the facts on Shumar's ship can be divided in two: objectively archived data quoted by our heroes (A) and the potential lies from the fake Shumar and his fake crew (B). The episode gives us these goodies:

A1) Daedalus has a charateristic subspace signal (says Data).
A2) Daedalus has not seen service since 172 years prior to the episode (says Data; but the class might have been retired several times before that already, with just lone individuals surviving that far, etc etc).
A3) Essex under Shumar went missing over 200 years prior (says Data)
A4) Essex was a Daedalus (muses Picard; he may be wrong, and Data might not have overheard his musings as there is no comment - but significantly for later events, Troi was also there to potentially overhear this).

B1) Essex had registry NCC-173 (says "Shumar" to Picard, whose expertise we can doubt: Picard did ask for this specific data, but neither accepts or disputes it when presented with it).
B2) Essex was a Daedalus (says "Shumar" to Picard; see above).
B3) Essex had "Crew, 229" (says "Shumar" to Picard's specific query on her "complement").
B4) Fell under the command of Admiral Uttan Narsu, SB 12 (says "Shumar" and continues that Picard can check "all this" in Starfleet records - but Picard declines to do so).
B5) Supposedly crashed on the planet, broke up high in the atmosphere in the process (claims "Shumar").
B6) In fact was used in an escape attempt from the planet (confesses "Shumar", but this may of course be another lie).

The thing is, Data is the onboard expert on matters Daedalus. With him possessed, it falls upon Worf and Worf alone to claim that "Shumar" knows a lot about Daedalus issues. We learn that the criminal possessing O'Brien authentically knows what O'Brien knows; "Shumar" ought to know what Troi knows, then, but no more.

So everything in column A is real, with the caveat on A4. Everything is column B is filtered through Troi's scope of knowledge and "Shumar"'s criminal intent. It's not supposed to stand scrutiny for any length of time, so "Shumar" might be inventing facts to pad up his story and hoping they won't expose him too soon.

The one thing he would lie about is the crew count, of course - because it has to match the number of accomplices he wishes to spring from the jail.

There are many disconnects between A and B, one of the most significant being that there indeed is an identifiable Daedalus beacon transmitting from the planet but this is never stated to be an Essex beacon. The connection between the class and the ship hinges exclusively on Picard's associating the two, and later posing no objection when "Shumar" through Troi feeds this belief back to him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Seven of Five]

It's a shame we never saw the Daedalus class in ENT. It looks perfect for a pre-TOS era, whereas the NX class is obviously based on a ship designed 100 years after.

I can perhaps understand the producers not wanting the hero ship to look too primitive, yet they could have utilised it in a different way, perhaps as a second, easier to build class of ship?

It think all of this is why I'm happy to see such a retro design for the new DIS series.

 

[Dukhat]

One possibility is the NX-01 had bulker equipment than later starships which prevented more personnel, iirc they had to remove people to make room for the MACOs.

The Daedalus (if it was after the NX) could have more advanced equipment the was more compact, allowing for more people per overall cubic meters.

Not really buying that theory. Even with the MACOs there was plenty of elbow room on the ship.

I've never really liked the idea that the Daedalus class, one of the first Federation starships, was represented by a former Jefferies Enterprise design, especially one that small. I also never liked that they retroactively made the other three TOS ships mentioned as operating around the time of the Essex into that design too. Luckily none of it is canon.

 

[Richard Baker]

One thing about the Daedalus design- a sphere can hold a lot of decks with each slightly smaller than the one towards the equator. The Constitution/NX class saucers have only one full deck, the rest are considerably smaller due to hull slopes. As an early ship I think the amenities would be spartan, crew bunking together and possibly a minimal turbolift system to save internal space as much as possible.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, though, the single wide deck is all standing room. Most of the decks in a sphere would be only partially suited for living in. And at the sizes traditionally suggested, the central bulge of Kirk's ship is already as big as the sphere of the Daedalus, meaning all of the saucer rim is just welcome extra.

Assuming, of course, that starship interiors tend to be habitable space in general. Might be crew cabins only comprise a tiny part of the interior volume. Although onscreen computer readouts on saucer decks suggest the exact opposite.

In any case, there's no problem in fitting 200 people inside a 103 m long Daedalus as such, unless and until we fit machinery in that volume, too. It would be a tight package, but since we never saw the interior of a Daedalus...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

A1) Daedalus has a charateristic subspace signal (says Data).
A2) Daedalus has not seen service since 172 years prior to the episode (says Data; but the class might have been retired several times before that already, with just lone individuals surviving that far, etc etc).
A3) Essex under Shumar went missing over 200 years prior (says Data)
A4) Essex was a Daedalus (muses Picard; he may be wrong, and Data might not have overheard his musings as there is no comment - but significantly for later events, Troi was also there to potentially overhear this).

B1) Essex had registry NCC-173 (says "Shumar" to Picard, whose expertise we can doubt: Picard did ask for this specific data, but neither accepts or disputes it when presented with it).
B2) Essex was a Daedalus (says "Shumar" to Picard; see above).
B3) Essex had "Crew, 229" (says "Shumar" to Picard's specific query on her "complement").
B4) Fell under the command of Admiral Uttan Narsu, SB 12 (says "Shumar" and continues that Picard can check "all this" in Starfleet records - but Picard declines to do so).
B5) Supposedly crashed on the planet, broke up high in the atmosphere in the process (claims "Shumar").
B6) In fact was used in an escape attempt from the planet (confesses "Shumar", but this may of course be another lie).

There's also a tidbit of info about all Federation ships from the time that we learn in TOS's "A Piece of the Action:" When Kirk tells Oxmyx that he'll be beaming down to the planet, he makes a comment that Oxmyx's people would have been used to seeing a Federation ship actually land but that won't be happening now because of the transporters. If that was indicative of all Starfleet ships at the time, then I really don't see the ball-and-tin can design being able to land any more than the Constitution class starship could.

 

[Tim Walker]

I understand that the Flower class was based on a whaling vessel.

So I can imagine the Daedalu being based on a freighter design.

 

[Dukhat]

I understand that the Flower class was based on a whaling vessel.

So I can imagine the Daedalu being based on a freighter design.

Flower class?

 

[Tim Walker]

Flower class-World War II escort vessels. Used against German U-boats in the Atlantic.

The vessels were named after flowers.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've not seen "Power Play" in a while, but does it explicitly state the Essex had a crew of 229, or that there were 229 people on board?

They do state the Essex had a crew of 229 Here's the dialogue:

PICARD: What was your vessel's designation and its complement?
TROI: NCC One seven three. Daedalus-class starship. Crew, two hundred and twenty nine.

 

[Tenacity]

Not really buying that theory. Even with the MACOs there was plenty of elbow room on the ship.

But would everyone die in a few weeks/months owing to the life support being unable to provide for their breathing needs? And how soon before the temp began to rise? And what happens to the water recycling with more than the recommended number of crew?

Admittedly there were lot's of corridors.

When Kirk tells Oxmyx that he'll be beaming down to the planet, he makes a comment that Oxmyx's people would have been used to seeing a Federation ship actually land but that won't be happening now because of the transporters.

Not exactly, Kirk said the ship wouldn't land and that they would "beam down." Kirk doesn't explain what that means.

One of Oxmyx men says (before they beamed down) "they won't able to move until they stop sparklng .

The previous ship ( a hundred years before) obviously had transporters.

 

[Dukhat]

But would everyone die in a few weeks/months owing to the life support being unable to provide for their breathing needs? And how soon before the temp began to rise? And what happens to the water recycling with more than the recommended number of crew?

But all of that is just speculation on your part that doesn't hold up with what we see on screen.

Not exactly, Kirk said the ship wouldn't land and that they would "beam down." Kirk doesn't explain what that means.

Kirk: "The ship won't land, but we'll transport several people down. Well, that's a little difficult for you to understand...I'll explain it in more detail when I see you."

This dialogue implies that the Iotians know nothing of transporters.

One of Oxmyx men says (before they beamed down) "they won't able to move until they stop sparklng .

You're mistaken here. Kirk, Spock and McCoy had already beamed down before meeting Oxmyx's men. The guy saw them beam down and observed that they couldn't move until they stopped sparkling. He makes this observation later when Spock and McCoy again beam to Oxmyx's office. It wasn't a case of him remembering what happened 100 years ago.

The previous ship ( a hundred years before) obviously had transporters.

Not according to the intent of this episode.

Flower class-World War II escort vessels. Used against German U-boats in the Atlantic.

The vessels were named after flowers.

Ok, but I'm not seeing the connection between a WWII sea ship and a Daedalus class starship.

 

[Albertese]

I don't know how I feel about the Ball-and-tin-can ship being able to land. Part of me thing why not? but also part of me figures why should it?

POSSIBLE STB SPOILER:
Scotty does refer to ships of the 22nd Century having been built in space with no intent to land. So there's that.

Of course, the Feds from the Horizon may well have landed with shuttles. There's no need for the ship itself to actually set down. Kirk's line could be read either way.

--Alex

 

[Tim Walker]

Dukhat, Timo suggested that during the Romulan war the Daedalus class had a role comparable to the Flowers.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't know how I feel about the Ball-and-tin-can ship being able to land. Part of me thing why not? but also part of me figures why should it?

Looking at photos of the Horizon desktop model from Drexfiles, it has what looks like a shuttlebay. So there's no reason why the ship should have to land if they have shuttles. Which again makes me think that the Horizon at least was not in fact this ball-and-tin can design. (See next)

Of course, the Feds from the Horizon may well have landed with shuttles. There's no need for the ship itself to actually set down. Kirk's line could be read either way.

Ok, so playing devil's advocate, why didn't Kirk just say, "We'll be transporting down instead of using shuttles?" By using the specific words the ship won't land implies that the entire Horizon landed on the planet and Kirk was choosing his words based on that point of view.

Dukhat, Timo suggested that during the Romulan war the Daedalus class had a role comparable to the Flowers.

Ah, ok, I hadn't read that conversation.

BTW, here's an old link to a Daedalus-size thread. Take a look at Praetor's last post where he compares the sizes of the NX-01 and the Daedalus. The Daedalus is ridiculously tiny in comparison, yet apparently has three times the crew!

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/daedalus-size-window-size.85831/page-2

 

[Tenacity]

The guy saw them beam down and observed that they couldn't move until they stopped sparkling. He makes this observation later when Spock and McCoy again beam to Oxmyx's office.

Problem with that is (on reviewing the scene) Oxmyx's men didn't arrive until after the landing party had already beamed down and were standing around.

 

[Timo]

Exactly. Yet the broader issue here is that the Iotians aren't people who only 100 years earlier would have been designing their first cotton mills, and now have learned to make radios, automobiles and tommy-guns. They are technologically savvy aliens who like to play pretend. Back when the Horizon came, they were playing Spinning Jenny. When the Horizon left, they switched over to Al Capone. Yet they probably knew how to build a warp drive at both timepoints - certainly they knew how to build a global fake Chicago in no time flat!

What they knew about transporters during the adventure thus need not derive from things learned a hundred years prior. For all we know, Okmyx and Kalo did a lot of teleporting of their own in order to interact with their "competitors" in plot time.

ENT tells us that FTL subspace communications and transporters existed when the Horizon visited Iotia. This may be in contradiction with episode intent, but it is not in contradiction with episode content. Transporters may have seen use in that encounter, and the onboard subspace set may simply have been out of range, its signals degrading to lightspeed ones due to the distance.

All that's just one half of the broader issue, mind you. What really happened back then and what the Iotians know is one thing - what Kirk knows is a different thing altogether. Is he up to snuff on the specs of century-old ships and missions? He is out of his depth on such stuff in other episodes (almost fatally so in "Balance of Terror"), but here he clearly is prepared to meet the people who met the Horizon: his implied mission, assigned before the opening credits, is to solve the mystery of her disappearance. He would no doubt have asked for Spock to give the lowdown on the vessel if he felt the need to patch up his holy knowledge. Even should his pride get in the way, he would find a way (such as in "BoT" again, cleverly asking for Spock to "educate the stupid crew").

Much would depend on how much Spock knew, then. Were this a UFP Starfleet mission, he should know a lot (such as the names of the crew - it's weird that our heroes never ask about the Iotians' interactions with specific people, referring by name to "Captain Fumble" or "First Contact Specialist Meddle"). Were the Horizon an Earth survey ship without a Federal connection, he might know less. A missing random civilian ship might have lots of unknowns (such as exact status of equip at date of loss), but would Kirk even bother to investigate one?

There are no showstoppers for making the Horizon the ball-and-tin ship, the Daedalus, or both. Nothing stops her from being one of those ENT deltas, either, or any random design for that matter. She could well be the specific ENT freighter by that name, too. Conversely, we don't really learn anything about the Daedalus and/or the ball-and-tin from this episode even if we assume the Horizon was one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Problem with that is (on reviewing the scene) Oxmyx's men didn't arrive until after the landing party had already beamed down and were standing around.

Kirk told Oxmyx where they'd be. Obviously Oxmyx's men saw them beam down out of camera shot, since they surrounded them not ten seconds later.

Later, when Spock and McCoy again beam to Oxmyx's office, the head goon says "watch this, boss. They can't move until they stop sparkling." If the Iotians already knew about beaming, wouldn't Oxmyx already know this? Why would his goon have to tell him that, unless he was going by what he saw earlier?

Every Iotian that was beamed somewhere else in the episode acted like they had no idea what happened to them. These are not the actions of people who know about transporters.

 

[Kemaiku]

There was no NX-01. Problem solved.

Spoiler: Trigger warning

It's a shame great discussions like this have to be ruined by Enterprise.