A theory on Daedalus Class.

[The Wormhole]

Sort of makes the NX-01 look a century or two ahead of its time, doesn't it?

No, the fact the NX-01 is based on a 24th century design makes it look two centuries ahead of its time.

The Daedalus look more like a precursor to the TOS Enterprise, than the NX-01 does.

Well, the Daedalus literally is a precursor to the TOS Enterprise, given its based on an early concept design for the ship.

Actually, here's the canon facts about the Daedalus class:

1. There was a Starfleet vessel class called the Daedalus class, although we don't know what it looks like.
2. The U.S.S. Essex was of this class, and it was in operation in 2167, six years after the founding of the Federation.
3. It had a crew of 229.

Also, the last Daedalus was decommissioned in 2196.

 

[Shawnster]

Based on this info (and going under the assumption that the little ball-and-tin can design is NOT in fact the Daedalus class), then I'd guess that the Daedalus class is much larger than even the NX class, possibly as large as the Constitution class (considering Pike had about 200 crew when he was in command of the Enterprise).

I'd have to see ship sizes to say for sure, but I'm of a mind to disagree or offer an alternative. Pike's Enterprise had a crew compliment of 203. That same ship under Kirk's command was 430 crew. Over double the personnel on the same ship. Now, the reasons for the difference can be several, but the fact remains that a ship that can hold 430 people was only holding 203.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I'd have to see ship sizes to say for sure, but I'm of a mind to disagree or offer an alternative. Pike's Enterprise had a crew compliment of 203. That same ship under Kirk's command was 430 crew. Over double the personnel on the same ship. Now, the reasons for the difference can be several, but the fact remains that a ship that can hold 430 people was only holding 203.

Imagine all the junior crewmembers who were either berthed singly or only had to double up in a stateroom under Pike. Then after the refit, suddenly everyone is jammed in by 2's and 4's! If Starfleet personnel complain like USN sailors can, the curse words would have been flowing like wine!

 

[Nightowl1701]

To quote Commodore SicOne, about seven years ago:

"I'm a fan of a 150-200m Daedalus. 229 people is a helluva lot of people to cram into a 105m ship and have room for sleeping, eating, working, plus all of the shuttles, equipment, things that actually make the ship work. 105m is still a big ship, but that means the ball is 25 meters in diameter or so, and that's not much room for people."

Me, I'd say 140-150 meters is about right. Still smaller than NX-01, but not ridiculously so.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'd have to see ship sizes to say for sure, but I'm of a mind to disagree or offer an alternative. Pike's Enterprise had a crew compliment of 203. That same ship under Kirk's command was 430 crew. Over double the personnel on the same ship. Now, the reasons for the difference can be several, but the fact remains that a ship that can hold 430 people was only holding 203.

The Pike era E looked a bit more spacious. The refit in the 60's must have cut down on cabin and corridor sizes.

 

[Dukhat]

I'd have to see ship sizes to say for sure, but I'm of a mind to disagree or offer an alternative. Pike's Enterprise had a crew compliment of 203. That same ship under Kirk's command was 430 crew. Over double the personnel on the same ship. Now, the reasons for the difference can be several, but the fact remains that a ship that can hold 430 people was only holding 203.

But that wasn't really my point. My point is that the Daedalus class held 230 people. The NX class (which is much larger than the ball-and-tin can ship) only held 83 people. The Constitution class originally held 203 people. Which means that if the Daedalus class is in fact that ball/tincan ship, then the people would have been packed in there like sardines. We see nothing of the sort on board the NX-01, so it's unrealistic to think that the Daedalus class is in fact that ship design.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

My thinking vis-a-vis the E having a crew of 203 under Pike and a crew of 430 under Kirk is that the extra are mostly science and security personnel to facilitate long-term operations over Kirk's 'Five Year Mission' (following the Abramsverse idea that the 5YM is substantially different from the usual 'tour of duty' of a starship (perhaps the five year would normally be split into 6-18 month chunks?).

 

[Sgt_G]

229 people is a helluva lot of people to cram into a 105m ship and have room for sleeping

Hot bunks and gang showers. It can be done.

 

[Albertese]

You can squeeze a bunch of people into a pretty small space. Napoleonic era sailing frigates were often only around 40 meters long and had crews of around 200 souls. By comparison, a Gato-class submarine was 95 meters and carried only 60 men.

But we can't just divide total crewmen by ship's length. Especially with starships. The proportions of the NX-class and the Daedalus-class are totally different. so a straight up length comparison is not very informative. We would really want to know the internal volumes of the two ship. This shouldn't be so hard to do: the Daedalus is a simple sphere and cylinder. Those are easy volume equations. And the NX is a mostly simple saucer. Getting it exactly right would be harder but you could get close. I think in both cases you can afford to omit the nacelles and pylon architecture as those areas would not really inhabited.

Maybe I'll try to figure this out when I have a few more minutes than I do just now. I'm willing to bet a 150 meter or longer Daedalus would fit the bill but I can't commit to that before doing the math.

The other thing to consider is that the 230 figure from "Power Play" [TNG] could be the maximum possible crew, while the NX-01's 80 crewmen could be a more minimal staff. Perhaps later in the run, NX-class ships were being sent out with 160 or more persons on board. The thing does seem pretty empty when we watch the show.

--Alex

 

[B.J.]

We really need an updated (or perhaps Trek-only) version of this page that splits the volumes up into habitable and uninhabited areas.

 

[Tenacity]

Pike's Enterprise had a crew compliment of 203.

With Pike it would be 204.

but the fact remains that a ship that can hold 430 people was only holding 203.

Dax did comment that Kirk's ship had it's personnel "packed in."

During the war games in Ultimate Computer, Kirk said the four starship facing them held over 1600 people, so the crew size of Kirk's ship would seem to be standard.

The NX class (which is much larger than the ball-and-tin can ship) only held 83 people.

One possibility is the NX-01 had bulker equipment than later starships which prevented more personnel, iirc they had to remove people to make room for the MACOs.

The Daedalus (if it was after the NX) could have more advanced equipment the was more compact, allowing for more people per overall cubic meters.

 

[drt]

No, the fact the NX-01 is based on a 24th century design makes it look two centuries ahead of its time.

Or the Akira is based on a two-centuries old design, with the very similar, but "upside-down", Miranda in between them.

 

[uniderth]

There was no NX-01. Problem solved.

Spoiler: Trigger warning

It's a shame great discussions like this have to be ruined by Enterprise.

 

[Spot261]

But that wasn't really my point. My point is that the Daedalus class held 230 people. The NX class (which is much larger than the ball-and-tin can ship) only held 83 people. The Constitution class originally held 203 people. Which means that if the Daedalus class is in fact that ball/tincan ship, then the people would have been packed in there like sardines. We see nothing of the sort on board the NX-01, so it's unrealistic to think that the Daedalus class is in fact that ship design.

It might work I suppose if we envisage the daedalus requiring far more crew per unit volume than the NX due to the nature of her tech. Earlier, less reliable, less automated. The compromise might be in terms of lower living standards and higher crew stress levels, with later vessels designers having the luxury of tech that allows for a lower crew density.

The main problem I see with this idea is the logistics of food, more crew equals either larger food supplies or shorter mission duration prior to resupply. This then starts to bear an influence on the ships mission profiles and makes the daedalus a very short range explorer, even more so than her low speeds would account for alone.

 

[The Wormhole]

Or the Akira is based on a two-centuries old design, with the very similar, but "upside-down", Miranda in between them.

I was referring to the real world, where it has been documented the NX-01 was based on the Akira design. In fact, the studio wanted the Akira itself used for Enterprise, it was Berman who had to twist arms to agree to "retro modifications" to the nacelles.

 

[Tim Walker]

I like NaughtyTrekkie's idea of a little, cheap, highly standardized fast-to-build ship. Which would also make sense for other eras, most Star Fleet vessels being such, with but a handful of premiere/prestige ships.

For example, I can imagine the Mirandas being this in later eras.

 

[Tim Walker]

http://daedalusclass.com

 

[Timo]

The concept of an "average crew density" for a given era doesn't sound all that appealing in light of what goes on in the real world.

Say, a navy may operate a sub-hunting corvette, a border patrol cutter, a survey vessel and a water tender of the same overall dimensions. The crew of the corvette may be 130, that of the tender perhaps seven. A survey vessel would tend to be closer to the latter than the former - except when she takes aboard a team of scientists for a specific survey sortie.

The hero ships of Archer and Pike/Kirk were supposed to do a lot of surveying or exploring (different things, perhaps, but the issue is confused by there no longer being anything to explore on Earth nowadays). A wildly fluctuating crew count or density rings true, and shouldn't be held against crew densities of other contemporary designs.

The Daedalus being significantly more densely packed than the hero ship of ENT also has verisimilitude written all over it, if the role of the Daedalus indeed is comparable to that of, say, Flower class corvettes in WWII. OTOH, even if we accept the Romulan War backstory for the proliferation of Daedalus ships, What remains unknown is the crew count of NX-01 during that conflict. Still eighty, even though that figure was optimized for the ferry mission of "Broken Bow" and then for the long range sortie of Season 3 (and no longer quoted in Season 4)? More like three hundred?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

But we aren't discussing an "average crew density for a given period", your examples compare ships with hugely differing roles in one time frame, whereas we are talking about ships performing superficially very similar roles, separated by a relatively short time frame but rapidly advancing technology.

You've got me stumped right now as to the NX class's crew compliment during season three, I don't remember any numbers mentioned, but clearly the addition of MACO's in itself would be a factor, taken alongside a presumable reduction in available space for the necessary supplies required for such a long trip.

 

[Timo]

Hmh? What timewise separation of similar ships is being discussed here? We have no reason to think Shumar's Essex and Archer's Enterprise would be "superficially very similar", so their differing crew counts can be freely discussed in any context:

1) Average crew density (a concept I claim does not exist for any era)
2) Characteristic crew size for a ship of certain type or mission (one might expect only gradual drift there as time passes, but the Pike->Kirk thing debunks the existence of this concept, too)
3) Crew count to be expected for a ship of Daedalus or NX design (but how can we expect anything when the above two approaches are debunked and all we have is the hard data on how much crew there really is aboard?)

How many people were aboard Archer's ship during the Xindi hunt... Yeah, seems I spoke out of my ass, there being no solid numbers quoted. Or does somebody know better?

Timo Saloniemi