A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I took Ghost's unease at being able to sense Jon was in danger right before he was attacked. Sensing the Others' arrival makes sense too, but we won't know for certain until the beginning of the next book. IIRC, GRRM will be opening with "two major battles". Most likely Stannis' siege on Winterfell and, as you said, the Others at the Wall. Are there any other things going on elsewhere? Ironborn attacks? Dornish displeasure towards Kings Landing? City-state battles in Slavers Bay?

 

I assumed the two battles Martin mentioned would be the battle in the snow (Stannis vs. Bolton forces) and Merreen (sp?).

Barristan and Co. seemed pretty screwed at the end of Dance. They were besieged and plague ridden.

But, I don't discount things getting nasty on the Wall. The Wildlings, the Watch and the Queen's men are going to probably turn on each other big time, even if the Others don't come.

Will there be a time lapse in which we don't know what is going on at the Wall? Jon was our main POV there. Mel has only had one POV, and Sam is at the Citadel now. I always assumed we would hear of what went down at the Wall secondhand for some reason - reports of the Others from stragglers that survived the carnage or urgent birds to Stannis from Selyse's company. Of course that is all just spec.

 

What I was curious about was how long the Wildings were allowed to remain unmolested by the Others while they were hanging out north of the wall. The Others/Whites army was already on the move when they attacked the Watch at the Fist of the First Men, only slightly behind the Wilding army at best, marching in parallel with them at worst. The Wildings make it to the wall first, obviously, and they hang out there for quite some time - enough for Stannis' forces to arrive, come to an agreement and bring a ton of people through the gates. What are the Others waiting for? The bunching-up of the Wilding civilians moving through the wall would have been a perfect time to surround and attack a huge contingent of humans that would have been quickly turned to swell their own ranks. The time frame doesn't quite add up to me. Are they aware of Mellisandre's presence and, if so, scared of her? Does her presence and, ergo, the presence of the Red God slow their advance and the influence of He-Who-Should-Not-Be-Named?

 

The next novel could pick up with Stannis having sent either Reek/ Theon or Asha back to the Wall and they could be the POV character(s) there. But I still think Jon will either live or be resurrected.

 

Jon is on a different level from Ned and Robb; Ned certainly was a shock, given that he looked like the main character in the first book, but when it's a series of five/seven that's not nearly the same thing as killing the guy who's been the main character of the whole thing. Robb wasn't even a POV figure (his death in the show will probably have a bigger impact for the unspoiled since the show doesn't have that distinction).

Paralleling Jon and Dany in the fifth book, it's about them both fumbling their responsibilities as leader; there's no real reason to think the remainder isn't about them recovering from that experience.

 

It just occurred to me that if they are fated to be together, we already know he likes 'em "kissed by fire"... Dany and her dragons would be perfect!

 

I don't think their numbers are that huge, otherwise they would have done a lot more damage historically. Their troops are time-limited to how long their corpses stay together. I don't think troops can turn troops so it would require one of the Others to do the turning. Sam killed one of their knights but he was on his own. The only other time we see one of their knights is at the very beginning of the first book and he was on his own too.

Of course I could be completely wrong about troops turning other living things but it isn't clear and the troops don't rampage around willy nilly like modern day zombie movies; they are driven by someone who knows about combat and subterfuge.

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/10/new-images-from-astapor-filming-in-morocco/

New photos of Emilia Clarke and Iain Glen onset in Morocco (presumably standing in for Astapor?).

 

“@OonaCC: Today was a day I will never forget. You will never forget. #GameOfThrones”



Damnit :/

 

I guess one advantage of not being a character from the books means that we don't know what's going to happen to her in connection to the RW... Will they use her w/o Robb?

 

Any use of her past the Wedding should reveal pretty quickly if there is in fact a conspiracy of some kind to preserve Robb's unborn heir and if that is going to play a part in the future plot.

 

Ugh. That makes me all dreadful, thinking about what kind of sick shit the Freys will do to Talisa.

 

So wasn't the book wife good enough for the tv show? I've never seen it so I don't know the differences. Also I'm getting the impression that a lot of people who like the tv show haven't read the books, so they aren't (or weren't) aware of the author's famous trick of killing off central characters on a whim.

 

That's definitely true. It's also true a lot of people watched at least the first season before reading the books so Ned Stark's death came as a shock. I guess I'll be interested to see how surprising Robb and Catelyn come to them.

 

The book wife required they actually put some plot into Robb's story instead of having him wander around angsting in armor and then marry the first girl he has seen (other than his mother) in a year.

 

The book wife is basically a one-scene wonder, and it would even more bizarre for an 18 year old to get into the situation with Jeyne that Robb did in the book.

 

What story? Robb is that guy we hear other people talking about. He's very important in terms of plot... for the same reasons other major political figures are. We don't get a single scene of Robb and Jeyne alone, and if memory serves we get very few scenes where Jeyne even talks (and that, iirc, to Catelyn).

Robb's story in the TV series however is about Robb. Whether or not it was executed well is a whole other discussion, obviously.

Pretty much. If there's any reason to make her from Volantis, though, I've yet to hear it. If there are any further twists the character is supposed to have though I guess season three is the time to hear it.

 

Then you completely missed the point.

Step 1. Robb has a big victory, takes the Crag. He is well on his way to chewing off a big chunk of Lannisters' own lands. The victory might have come a bit easier than it should have.
Step 2. Robb is injured in the battle and bedridden.
Step 3. The Westerlings (on orders from Tywin) encourage their daughter to befriend Robb and help nurse him back to health. They may or may not have suggested to her that their best chance for survival was for her to "comfort" him when he is at his most distraught after receiving news that his brothers are dead.
Step 4. Honorable Robb realizes what he has done and insists on marriage (or is goaded into it by her parents with some subtle digs at his honor) rather than be seen to have taken advantage of the girl, who was essentially his prisoner at the time.
Step 5. Tywin is informed and sends word to begin negotiations with the Freys before Catelyn can begin trying to contain the damage.
Step 6. Profit. Also a lot of blood.

 

Oh I did not, although you seem to have missed mine. I'm distinguishing story from plot. Robb is instrumental to the plot, and I mentioned that.

But not so much when it comes to story. This is part of the reason most of the biggest plot beats you mention regarding Robb happen off-stage.

The TV series - for better or worse - involves Robb more in the story than its counterpart. It devotes time to Robb's perspective on the war and Robb's relationship with Talisa (while the novel Robb's relationship with Jeyne is inferred and told to other people). It still elides his major military victories, although that's obviously in part because budget is a bit of an issue here.

 

Robb in the books was always a kind of plot device who was doing something that made everyone else react, without ever spending much time with him. Everyone else gets their own stories and we return to them regularly (unless they get killed). I can understand why they would want to flesh him out for a tv show, since he's young and dynamic. I don't think Martin was all that interested in him tbh.