A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[stonester1]

Let's just say I don't think Kegg is anywhere near as bad as you seem to think he is. You can only say how great something is so many times; sooner or later it becomes more interesting to point out the flaws. I think that's where he is right now, and I don't think that's a problem.

I see nitpicking in several instances. Genuine criticism is fine, but relentless picciune naval gazing over petty stuff (and from other reaction seen here, I'm not the only one who has observed this) is just...annoying.

Not trying to stop Kegg from doing his thing, and he does occasionally have legit criticism.

However, if Kegg is free to take aim at everything he chooses (he should be), his criticisms should also fall under scrutiny as well. Certainly he has no problems taking aim at the praises of others.

So turnabout is fair play.

 

[TheGodBen]

Season 2 Review

The Babylon Review Project was our last, best hope for lolz. A self-referential-joke thread 12,000 posts long, located in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy forum. A place of nerdiness and bickering for a quarter of a hundred humans and human-like geeks. A squalid mess on the internet, all alone on the site. It was the morning of the third age of TheGodBen's review threads... the month the great eejit failed us all. This is the story of the second season of the review thread. The month is April. The name of the place is Deep Space Ni-... wait, Babylon 5!

Cue even more dramatic music.

Everybody, this is the first graph. Graph, this is everybody. Not a difficult graph to sum up, I found the first third of the season to be fairly weak, the middle third was average, and the final third was very good. The trend-line is very clear in the direction it is pointing, it is an upward slope that the blue line mostly followed, with a few obvious fluctuations. The average score for this season was 5.682, which by my standard is pretty good. While two or three episodes managed to blow me away, the season itself didn't, and many of the early episodes are responsible for that.

This graph is a bit weird, very heavy on the 4/10 episodes. But this season didn't have any scores in the 0 or 1 range and it had three in the 9 or 10 range, so that really helped it out. 8 episodes scored below average, 3 were on the average, and 11 scored above average.
Best episode: The Coming of Shadows
Worst episode: The Long Dark


Statistics

Captain Greyshirt: 12 (+4)
Scott Bakula: 35 (+10)
Scott Bakula?!: 4 (+1)

Season 1 Average: 5.045
Season 2 Average: 5.682
Overall Average: 5.356

Voyager Average After 2 Seasons: 5.122
Enterprise Average After 2 Seasons: 4.882


In Summation

I'll be honest, I was expecting more out of this season, I was thinking this might be the first season I've reviewed to break the 6/10 barrier. But the early part of this season felt almost as aimless as the first season, and even after The Coming of Shadows the show still seemed to be struggling with some mediocre episodes. The Narn/Centauri war was great, and some of the stuff involving Earth and the Psi Corps was great, and Confessions and Lamentations was great. But the other stuff? Eh.

That's not a huge issue with the show, lots of shows are like this. When people say that DS9 gets good in its later seasons they're not talking about episodes like Who Mourns for Morn?, and (as Sykonee posted in his review thread yesterday) there's nothing wrong with an episode like A Simple Investigation, but it's not the reason people talk about the show. BSG's episodic stuff is mostly criticised. And Lost? Lost has Kate episodes. So there's nothing wrong with B5 struggling with episodic material, but the way that people talk about the greatness of B5 I was expecting the show to focus more on its strong suit this year, and that is its main plot.

Maybe next season?

 

[TheGodBen]

I say, and this is me, not speaking for you, I say, if you don't enjoy it, why spend so much time with it, talking about it?

That's how I got started doing this stuff, I nitpicked the hell out of Voyager. It's great fun, and some people enjoy reading it. I know I enjoy reading Kegg's posts because I often agree with him, and it's nice to be reassured that there are other people out there who enjoy this show but are still fully able to criticise what they view as its weaknesses.

 

[chrisspringob]

[EDIT: This was meant in response to stonester.]

This is the internet. Lots of people spend huge amounts of time noting the flaws of TV shows and movies that they love. I don't think there's anything the least bit odd about Kegg's posts. I myself often tend to spend more internet discussion time on points where I think a show went wrong than where it went right. Because usually, where something goes right it's kind of self-explanatory, and there isn't as much to say. Pointing out flaws tends to take a bit more explanation.

 

[stonester1]

[EDIT: This was meant in response to stonester.]

This is the internet. Lots of people spend huge amounts of time noting the flaws of TV shows and movies that they love. I don't think there's anything the least bit odd about Kegg's posts. I myself often tend to spend more internet discussion time on points where I think a show went wrong than where it went right. Because usually, where something goes right it's kind of self-explanatory, and there isn't as much to say. Pointing out flaws tends to take a bit more explanation.

Me, I think pointing out what went right takes just as much explanation. It's one thing to say you enjoyed it, it's another to show why.

Besides...just speaking for myself...life is short. I'd rather spend it with something I enjoy than something I don't.

 

[Lindley]

Besides...just speaking for myself...life is short. I'd rather spend it with something I enjoy than something I don't.

Why do you assume that someone doesn't enjoy something just because they're willing to point out its flaws?

 

[stonester1]

Besides...just speaking for myself...life is short. I'd rather spend it with something I enjoy than something I don't.

Why do you assume that someone doesn't enjoy something just because they're willing to point out its flaws?

There are degrees. Relentlessly, even joyfully, and certainly angrilly (in the case of the aforementioned BSG TOSsers), but continually running it down, with minor to nonexistent balance, doesn't say "enjoyment" to me.

I've pointed out flaws here (less than most, but still), others have. But if that is the balance of what you do, and further, your actions towards this show can be compared to actions towards other shows, you can get a fair picture of what one's pattern is.

Kegg runs down B5. It's his right, it's his opinion. But if the show sucks as bad as he claims it does (or acts like it does), I personally don't see how one can get real enjoyment out of it.

 

[RoJoHen]

Kegg runs down B5. It's his right, it's his opinion. But if the show sucks as bad as he claims it does (or acts like it does), I personally don't see how one can get real enjoyment out of it.

If it makes you feel better, I completely agree. It's not just this thread, though. I've noticed he reviews most shows like this. He seems to analyze every little thing, but I never feel like he actually has any fun with what he's watching.

Either way, I stopped reading his reviews a while ago because they bugged me so much. I'm all for criticizing a show, but there's something about the way Kegg does it that just irks me.

 

[DWF]

Post not poster as I'm sure that Neroon would agree.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I'll be honest, I was expecting more out of this season, I was thinking this might be the first season I've reviewed to break the 6/10 barrier. But the early part of this season felt almost as aimless as the first season, and even after The Coming of Shadows the show still seemed to be struggling with some mediocre episodes. The Narn/Centauri war was great, and some of the stuff involving Earth and the Psi Corps was great, and Confessions and Lamentations was great. But the other stuff? Eh.

That's not a huge issue with the show, lots of shows are like this. When people say that DS9 gets good in its later seasons they're not talking about episodes like Who Mourns for Morn?, and (as Sykonee posted in his review thread yesterday) there's nothing wrong with an episode like A Simple Investigation, but it's not the reason people talk about the show. BSG's episodic stuff is mostly criticised. And Lost? Lost has Kate episodes. So there's nothing wrong with B5 struggling with episodic material, but the way that people talk about the greatness of B5 I was expecting the show to focus more on its strong suit this year, and that is its main plot.

Maybe next season?

I pretty much agree with your general thoughts on the show so far. The fact that the first half of S2 is really mediocre is not something that fits the usual 'talking points' but is absolutely true. It's nice to see there are other people who feel like me - who enjoy the show, but also find it to be at times wildly overrated. That's not the fault of the show really, but the enthusiasm of the show's biggest fans, and the same names that always seem to need to explain anything remotely negative, casts this impression that it is this mythic piece of greatness that should sit on a shelf next to The Odyssey and Lord of the Rings and The Godfather. Not really the case. Its reasons like this that I make it a point not to go over the top even when evangalizing a show I love, no show (other than maybe The Wire there I go breaking my rule already) can live up to it.

BUT, I will say this, Season 3 is by and far, imo, the most consistently good season of Babylon 5. It stands up favorably to, say, DS9 S5 and S6 which a lot of people consider to be their glory seasons. By my rough count, I'd say there are four or five big-time episodes that stack up well with episodes like Long Twilight Struggle or DS9's Sacrifice of Angels/Call to Arms, you know, those type of episodes. A lot of the episodes are kind of half-arc episodes with their own plot, but much more focused on ongoing storylines. Being that this season didn't deal with sudden lead changes a la Sinclair/Sheriden, or behind the scenes cancellation drama (S4), it's a tantalizing glimpse at the kind of consistent quality that B5 might have been able to maintain in a more secure situation.

 

[Neroon]

Did EarthGov push ahead with its plans for a non-aggression pact with the Centauri?

Yes, as I believe Ivanova's monolog stated. I don't recall it word-for-word, but I think it was in there.

The first part of her monologue says:
""It was the end of the Earth year 2259, and the war was upon us. As anticipated, a few days after the Earth Centauri treaty was announced, the Centauri widened their war to include many of the Non-Aligned Worlds. And there was another war brewing closer to home, a personal one whose cost would be higher than any of us could imagine."

(since Minbari do not lie),

Well, there is one exception where they will: to save another or another's honor. ("The Quality of Mercy", "There All the Honor Lies")

 

[sidious618]

Besides...just speaking for myself...life is short. I'd rather spend it with something I enjoy than something I don't.

Why do you assume that someone doesn't enjoy something just because they're willing to point out its flaws?

Nothing. But when someone picks a small thing and harps on it for ages it gets extremely tiring. Kegg has a tendency to do this. TheGodBen can be very critical but he doesn't do that.

 

[David cgc]

(since Minbari do not lie),

Well, there is one exception where they will: to save another or another's honor. ("The Quality of Mercy", "There All the Honor Lies")

And since any lie can be perceived as saving someone's honor, they get to say whatever they want.

 

[Neroon]

Besides...just speaking for myself...life is short. I'd rather spend it with something I enjoy than something I don't.

Why do you assume that someone doesn't enjoy something just because they're willing to point out its flaws?

Nothing. But when someone picks a small thing and harps on it for ages it gets extremely tiring. Kegg has a tendency to do this. TheGodBen can be very critical but he doesn't do that.

I think it's best we table the discussion of poster's techniques, regardless of which one is the subject at the time. If any problem develops, it will be taken care of.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

As a Babylon 5 fan, I honestly don't see the problem with Kegg's reviews.

For instance, Kegg's B5 reviews aren't anywhere near stj's seemingly neverending rants about nuBSG/Caprica. Now, those were truly annoying.

 

[Reverend]

It could just be Londo's personal beliefs that's the issue we don't if any other Centauri saw anything.

Cart before the horse. Read my previous posts.

No we've seen that Londo doesn't have the beliefs as even Vir does, it's more than alittle odd that he didn't see anything at all.

Nonsense. They were both raised in a multitheistic culture with the Great Maker and the larger Pantheon. What they individually believe, deep down is neither here nor there. A projected image that's intended to inspire awe and belief would be pretty damn useless if it didn't work on individuals that didn't already believe. As to why a Centauri, specifically didn't see anything, I addressed that in the spoiler tags, so won't be repeating it here.

 

[Kegg]

I haven't been writing reviews in this thread. Nor do I ever, I don't really have the patience for them. The closest you'd get would be by BSG thread from a few months ago, where I rambled interminably about the series as I was watching it. Those were just long paragraphs of assorted opinions about various things in the series that ran into pointless disgressions and eventually I think touched on the whole angel idea there too (but also Lilith, who is pretty fun.)

All I've been doing here is arguing in an irritating and overly verbose manner, but I do that everywhere I write anything about on the internet. Often, to be fair, at much greater length and in much more critical terms than I've levelled against B5 - because, after all, B5 is a show I like. The rather trenchant attitude is really only one you'd get from a fan; someone who disliked B5 probably wouldn't have watched it or even remembered it at this point.

I haven't been that interested in defending the show because there are plenty of people to do that. I liked "Comes the Inquistor", for example, but what exactly about it that I liked could I not say that hadn't already been said? It's an episode where people talk at each other all the time. I like big lengthy dialogue setpieces. It's in my nature.

I've also posted some rather florid praise of the show, but it seems I'm not the only one who accentuates the negative.

You wouldn't, which was rather the point. Leprechauns aside, an Angel is about the last thing you'd expect to jump out of that suit.

The godlike aliens are demigods? I don't know, I was never all that surprised.

 

[Brian]

This is kind of late to the discussion (man you guys were chatty over the weekend!), but I don't see that this point has been made, so I'll go ahead and make it.

I have seen "deus ex machina" tossed out multiple times in this thread, in condemnation of "The Fall of Night", but that is not what happened in this episode.

Webster defines deux ex machina as "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty".

Kosh was not introduced suddenly to provide a contrived solution. Nor did JMS think up his true form on the spot to work out a plot corner he had written himself into.

An established character, integral to the fabric of the show's narrative, chose to publicly let go of a closely guarded secret in order to save another vital character's life. That's drama, not deus ex machina.

If it was Ivanova letting everyone know of her telepathy in order to stop the Centauri bomber, would reviewers be crying deus ex machina? No. Just because Kosh has a certain heavenly appearance doesn't make that term apply here.

 

[Reverend]

The godlike aliens are demigods? I don't know, I was never all that surprised.

Perhaps not in those terms, but in terms of pure imagery I defy anyone to claim to have expected a bald glowing human in a nightgown to jump out of that suit!

Mind you, in my case, up until this point I had convinced myself that Kosh wasn't an actual Vorlon but an avatar for the "real Vorlon", that being his ship. Shows why my deductive reasoning is worth.

 

[TheGodBen]

Webster defines deux ex machina as "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty".

Firstly, I prefer Wikipedia's definition, I feel it adds the greater scope:

A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a previously intractable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with an often contrived introduction of a new character, ability, or object.

Kosh was certainly on the show from the start, but he had never displayed the ability to fly like an angel before.


Secondly, I already explained that my use of the phrase was a more literal translation in that "god" showed up and solved the problem, which is where the phrase originally comes from. And if you want to go with an even more literal translation, "A God from the machine" is also a great way to summarise Kosh leaving his encounter suit.