A fun movie with horrifying implications

[wayoung]

As I've been involved in multiple discussions in those and other board I've found myself thinking more and more about the, quite frankly, terrifying implications of a lot of Star Trek Beyond. Which is pretty remarkable for a film that tried very hard (and mostly suceeded) to bring the fun back to Trek after venturing Into Darkness. That said, the repercussions from Beyond are much worse than those from Into Darkness if the producers didn't just ignore them a like they did in the past movie.

1). The Federation is at war with an Interstellar force.

Beyond begins with Kirk trying to negotiate peace between two warring species. He fails. In the process of his failing he is attacked by planetary leaders and effectively kidnaps and imprisons several of them for an indeterminate length of time.

They're even still on the Yorktown during the party at the end of the film.

This is a warlike, easily provoked species that has Interstellar capabilities and has been actively engaged in another war for an unknown length of time and already viewed the Federation as tools of their enemy.

Will Beyond's sequel be Star Trek: The Teenaxi Wars?

2) Each swarm ship is shown to be manned. There are thousands and thousands of swarm ships. How many vessels has Krall captured and people he enslaved over the years? No other space faring species looked into this in the hundred years he's been enslaving tens of thousands of people?

3). How many Enterprise survivors were there, and why does no one seem to care much about the dead?

We see what, three beam outs from the labour camp of 30 people each, for a total of 60? The prime E had a crew of 400 and it was a lot smaller. Why does no one seem to care about all the dead during the movie, the only mention being a quick toast during the party before Kirk and Spock talk about how much they can't wait to get into space again. The deaths of hundreds of his crew actually renewed Kirk's love for space travel. That's messed up.

4) What's the state of psychiatry in the Kelvinverse?

Continuing on from 3, the survivors should be experiencing both healthy and unhealthy mental and emotional responses from enduring a horrifying tragedy. We know from all the other TV series that PTSD, survivors guilt, etc all exist and aren't "cured" in Trek, and that counselling is the preferred method of dealing with mental and emotional issues. So, the only explanation for the general lack of response by the surviving crew is that they are heavily medicated so that they are not even expressing the usual, healthy emotions from a traumatic event.

So does Starfleet medicate it's officers to shit to prevent them from dealing with traumatic experiences just so they can send them away on another mission with no care for their crews mental and emotional well being? Are starship crews essentially being mind controlled via pharmacology in the Kelvinverse?

Looking forward to others thoughts. Let's have some fun

 

[The Wormhole]

). The Federation is at war with an Interstellar force.

Beyond begins with Kirk trying to negotiate peace between two warring species. He fails. In the process of his failing he is attacked by planetary leaders and effectively kidnaps and imprisons several of them for an indeterminate length of time.

They're even still on the Yorktown during the party at the end of the film.

This is a warlike, easily provoked species that has Interstellar capabilities and has been actively engaged in another war for an unknown length of time and already viewed the Federation as tools of their enemy.

Given Kevin was partying with his captors and becoming close friends with one of them, I don't think he's holding a grudge. Therefore, no war.

3). How many Enterprise survivors were there, and why does no one seem to care much about the dead?

We see what, three beam outs from the labour camp of 30 people each, for a total of 60? The prime E had a crew of 400 and it was a lot smaller. Why does no one seem to care about all the dead during the movie, the only mention being a quick toast during the party before Kirk and Spock talk about how much they can't wait to get into space again. The deaths of hundreds of his crew actually renewed Kirk's love for space travel. That's messed up.

Sounds like SOP for Starfleet in all the other shows and movies.

4) What's the state of psychiatry in the Kelvinverse?

Continuing on from 3, the survivors should be experiencing both healthy and unhealthy mental and emotional responses from enduring a horrifying tragedy. We know from all the other TV series that PTSD, survivors guilt, etc all exist and aren't "cured" in Trek, and that counselling is the preferred method of dealing with mental and emotional issues. So, the only explanation for the general lack of response by the surviving crew is that they are heavily medicated so that they are not even expressing the usual, healthy emotions from a traumatic event.

So does Starfleet medicate it's officers to shit to prevent them from dealing with traumatic experiences just so they can send them away on another mission with no care for their crews mental and emotional well being? Are starship crews essentially being mind controlled via pharmacology in the Kelvinverse?

Even when PTSD is addressed in Star Trek, it's usually resolved too easily. After his Borg experience, Picard mud wrestles with his brother and is all better again. Likewise, Picard again only spends a few minutes talking about being tortured by the Cardassians and is back to normal. Data being told what he did was human washes away his guilt and makes him feel good about getting his best friend captured and tortured, and the fact this led to the Enterprise being destroyed doesn't seem to bother him. Sisko loses his wife, which makes him depressed for the next two and a half years, but teaching the Prophets about linear time and baseball produces a complete 180 in him. On Voyager, the Doctor suffers psychological episode over losing a patient, yet all it takes is reading Janeway's poetry book and he's fine again. And so on.

 

[wayoung]

Given Kevin was partying with his captors and becoming close friends with one of them, I don't think he's holding a grudge. Therefore, no war.

That's meaningless. Historically political leaders are always treated extremely well (so that if the tables are flipped they get the same treatment as well as preventing hard feelings during negotiations for cessation of hostilities).

If Paul Ryan got in a fight with a North Korean military officer on the floor of the house and was subsequently kidnapped by NK, do you not believe there would be severe military repercussions, despite whatever dinner parties he may attend while in captivity?

Sounds like SOP for Starfleet in all the other shows and movies.


Even when PTSD is addressed in Star Trek, it's usually resolved too easily. After his Borg experience, Picard mud wrestles with his brother and is all better again. Likewise, Picard again only spends a few minutes talking about being tortured by the Cardassians and is back to normal. Data being told what he did was human washes away his guilt and makes him feel good about getting his best friend captured and tortured, and the fact this led to the Enterprise being destroyed doesn't seem to bother him. Sisko loses his wife, which makes him depressed for the next two and a half years, but teaching the Prophets about linear time and baseball produces a complete 180 in him. On Voyager, the Doctor suffers psychological episode over losing a patient, yet all it takes is reading Janeway's poetry book and he's fine again. And so on.

Agreed in that it's always too easily resolved. For the main characters. That doesn't mean it's non - existent. It's a symptom of the reset button, a plot device that has, for the most part, lived it's day and died.

Even in the 60's though TOS had multiple examples of traumatized Starfleet officers who couldn't be helped (ie. Decker and Garth). A hundred years in the future Nog's only help was a holographic lounge singer. O'Brien tried to kill himself. PTSD is real in the Trek universe, even if it's not properly addressed. Beyond ignores it entirely despite trauma being the major driving force in the previous Kelvinverse films. Nero's entire drive is trauma over his wifes death.

If you take that trauma exists, and the characters went through traumatic events, yet show no sign of being traumatized, or of even showing healthy grief or other normal emotional responses, then the logical conclusion is that they're drugged to the gills for the benefit of Starfleet, not for their own well being.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

1). The Federation is at war with an Interstellar force.

Beyond begins with Kirk trying to negotiate peace between two warring species. He fails. In the process of his failing he is attacked by planetary leaders and effectively kidnaps and imprisons several of them for an indeterminate length of time.

They're even still on the Yorktown during the party at the end of the film.

This is a warlike, easily provoked species that has Interstellar capabilities and has been actively engaged in another war for an unknown length of time and already viewed the Federation as tools of their enemy.

Will Beyond's sequel be Star Trek: The Teenaxi Wars?

The Teenaxi seem like a troublesome race of hot-tempered little fuckers who are constantly biting off more than they can chew. I got the impression that Kirk was actually kind of humoring them, trying to calm them down and get them to accept a peace offering rather than launch themselves into a war they were almost certain to lose. They could probably go to war with the Federation if they wanted, but I don't get the impression they're actually a threat; the next diplomat who has to smooth things over will probably have a huge number of facepalm moments as the Teenaxi starships unload volley after volley of 20mm cannon fire into his shields while loudly demanding his surrender.

Starfleet's quandry: Yeah, they're stupid and annoying, but if we don't do something they're going to piss off someone who wouldn't think twice about glassing their whole planet.

2) Each swarm ship is shown to be manned. There are thousands and thousands of swarm ships. How many vessels has Krall captured and people he enslaved over the years?

I thought those were all humanoid robots and not actual people.

3). How many Enterprise survivors were there, and why does no one seem to care much about the dead?

It's implied that most of the crew got off and was captured by Krall. It's also heavily implied that the survivors were NOT on the Franklin when Kirk went after Krall. We don't actually know what the ship's original crew size was, but we have no way to really know and we're better off just taking at face value that they got most of the crew back.

4) What's the state of psychiatry in the Kelvinverse?

Neural Neutralizer.

We know from all the other TV series that PTSD, survivors guilt, etc all exist and aren't "cured" in Trek, and that counselling is the preferred method of dealing with mental and emotional issues...

"You feel no guilt for surviving the destruction of the Enterprise.
You understand you had no control of the circumstances of that mission.
You understand that what happened happened and you accept it cannot be changed.
You feel compelled to understand the lessons learned from this tragedy and dedicate your future career to those lost crewmen in order to honor their sacrifices.
You will stop trying to get into Lieutenant Uhura's pants. Any attempt to hookup with Lieutenant Uhura will cause you great pain.
GREAT PAIN!
GREAT PAIN!!!

 

[F. King Daniel]

2) Each swarm ship is shown to be manned. There are thousands and thousands of swarm ships. How many vessels has Krall captured and people he enslaved over the years? No other space faring species looked into this in the hundred years he's been enslaving tens of thousands of people?

They're all drone robot workers, left behind by the "Ancient Ones". I missed it the first time I saw the movie, and thought they were just soldiers wearing helmets (and wondered where Krall had been recruiting).

The only living baddies were the three survivors of the Franklin crew, now known as Krall, Manas and Kalara.

 

[wayoung]

They're all drone robot workers, left behind by the "Ancient Ones". I missed it the first time I saw the movie, and thought they were just soldiers wearing helmets (and wondered where Krall had been recruiting).

The only living baddies were the three survivors of the Franklin crew, now known as Krall, Manas and Kalara.

Hmm, is that established on screen? All I remember is Jayla and the person who went to Yorktown at the start saying Krall pirated the ships, captured the crew, and used them as slaves and for his immortality device. I don't remember anything saying that Krall's people were Franklin survivors either. The implication I had was that he vampired them all (survival of the fittest and what not).

Why use robots to fly ships? Seems counter intuitive. Wouldn't it be better to just have the ships self-piloting, like 2000's BSG cylons? Why would robots built for mine work be humanoid and big? Why would they also be trained to be excellent pilots?

I'm happy to admit I'm wrong about that if there's some on screen statement to that effect but it doesn't make much sense.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hmm, is that established on screen? All I remember is Jayla and the person who went to Yorktown at the start saying Krall pirated the ships, captured the crew, and used them as slaves and for his immortality device. I don't remember anything saying that Krall's people were Franklin survivors either. The implication I had was that he vampired them all (survival of the fittest and what not).

Why use robots to fly ships? Seems counter intuitive. Wouldn't it be better to just have the ships self-piloting, like 2000's BSG cylons? Why would robots built for mine work be humanoid and big? Why would they also be trained to be excellent pilots?

I'm happy to admit I'm wrong about that if there's some on screen statement to that effect but it doesn't make much sense.

It's in Edison's log video, he mentions a "drone workforce" - presumably to invade Yorktown the way they did the Enterprise. Simon Pegg and Doug Jung have said in an interview that there was more information about the drone soldiers in the script, but it was cut.

The ships were all piloted by Edison, doing his bidding via cyberpathic link. It was that which the Franklin disrupted, causing the ships to fall out of their ultra-close formation, collide and explode.

 

[wayoung]

It's in Edison's log video, he mentions a "drone workforce" - presumably to invade Yorktown the way they did the Enterprise. Simon Pegg and Doug Jung have said in an interview that there was more information about the drone soldiers in the script, but it was cut.

The ships were all piloted by Edison, doing his bidding via cyberpathic link. It was that which the Franklin disrupted, causing the ships to fall out of their ultra-close formation, collide and explode.

Now that you mention it I recall that statement but I assumed that it was specifically referring to the mines. Hard to believe a machine built to mine would be big, humanoid, and be capable of piloting a ship, even if it's directed by a human directing ten thousand other drones at the same time - doesn't make much sense. But if that's what's on screen that's what's on screen. Thanks.

Still, he is sitting on that class M planet committing piracy against any ship that wanders by. Just not to the extent I had thought.

 

[F. King Daniel]

They were attacking numerous passing ships - Jaylah's parents, and the thugs that cornered Scotty among them.

 

[Relayer1]

I spent a considerable amount of time and effort here and elsewhere filling in gaps, explaining away issues and papering over plotholes with the '09 film and to a lesser extent STID.

I'm nowhere near invested enough in the Kelvin timeline and Beyond to bother trying to compensate for the stupidity, sloppiness and general cruddy writing any more.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm nowhere near invested enough in the Kelvin timeline and Beyond to bother trying to compensate for the stupidity, sloppiness and general cruddy writing any more.

Then it's a damn good thing there was nothing of the sort

 

[UssGlenn]

Beyond's Plot makes sense for the most part, but once again, a large part of the explanatory dialog is cut, meaning you have to pay really close attention, and/or watch multiple times to put everything together. Which is unfortunate.

 

[Mudd]

It's a goddamned movie, not a window into some alternative reality.

No war, no trauma, no ends tied up. Next one is about Kirk and his dad.

 

[wayoung]

It's a goddamned movie, not a window into some alternative reality.

No war, no trauma, no ends tied up. Next one is about Kirk and his dad.

Yes. It's a movie. Being discussed in a discussion forum about that movie. If you don't like discussing said movie why are you posting on a forum for discussing said movie?

 

[Relayer1]

Then it's a damn good thing there was nothing of the sort

I wish that were the case - I had high hopes for a Pegg script.

Of course, Trek was never immune to those flaws, but it's easier to bear with them, and (STV excepted) not nearly so in your face.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I wish that were the case - I had high hopes for a Pegg script.

Of course, Trek was never immune to those flaws, but it's easier to bear with them, and (STV excepted) not nearly so in your face.

You might be using a really weird definition of "flaws" then because STB's various plot holes were only apparent to me after four viewings and 300 hours of intense overthinking.

ST09 and STID had their holes too, but these were mostly the result of trying to fit too much story into two little time; they are basically stories that would be a lot happier padded out over a six-part TV episode arc. If you then add STB as a six-part series -- it doesn't need it, but HOLY HELL it would be cool -- those three movies would basically add up to a whole television season

 

[JasonJ]

If I were on nuKirks ship, I'd be getting pissed off that all my belongings keep getting blown out into space, vaporized, or otherwise destroyed. That ship has had more hull breeches than a styrofoam sailboat in a sea of gasoline.

That being said, I think it's part not wanting to clutter up the movie screenplay with unnecessary dialog about counseling and giving weaknesses (albeit realistically) to your main protagonists, and part really really good prozac in the 23rd century.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Here are the only three "real" villains of the movie:

 

[wayoung]

That being said, I think it's part not wanting to clutter up the movie screenplay with unnecessary dialog about counseling and giving weaknesses (albeit realistically) to your main protagonists,

Which is a valid out of universe explanation - a movie can't always delve into everything it brings up - which is why we get to discuss the issues it raises but doesn't answer.

Here are the only three "real" villains of the movie:

Thanks for that. Was this on screen as well or a theory? I thought they established that the alien woman's ship really was pirated and she joined Krall.

 

[JasonJ]

Which is a valid out of universe explanation - a movie can't always delve into everything it brings up - which is why we get to discuss the issues it raises but doesn't answer.



Thanks for that. Was this on screen as well or a theory? I thought they established that the alien woman's ship really was pirated and she joined Krall.

I thought it was established as King Daniel posted, that those were the three survivors of the Franklin, including Kalara (who only faked being a pirated refugee). I believe it was that the actual aliens aboard the pirated ship were drained of their life energy, which is why she took on their appearance and brain anatomy (and thus lost the ability to speak English/or gained the ability to speak the alien language). Memory Alpha has this backstory for her. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kalara Additionally, the same actress plays Wolff and Kalara, further reinforcing her as the same person, albeit with different genetics due to the energy transference tech.