A few things to discuss about Kes

[Oddish]

Not to mention that the series was fresh and full of ideas, something which started to fade in season 3.

True. By killing off Seska and Suder and not establishing other good recurring conflicts, it was full speed ahead down Stagnation Alley.

Killing off Spock in that movie was a mistake. They should have realized that Star Trek would have problems without him and should have let him stay alive if they could manage to persuade Nimoy to continue as Spock or at least maybe return some time in the future.

Which they did. But it was one seriously glorious death, in the meantime.

Better to let Worf and Martok live with that disgrace. At least none of them were killed off or ruined to the point of no salvation.

I can imagine the songs made up about them. "The 51-Second Chancellor" and "Worf's Sock Puppet".

There should be some decent person out there who would dare to do something about it.

Someone did. That's why Harry's name wound up on the heroes wall. It was a much delayed slap across both the VOY showrunners' faces, and that of the "forever ensign" crowd.

It is actually funny! I like Tom's little joke there!

It's so Tom Paris.

But fortunately, there are bands who have managed to last for centuries and still manages to come up with good music.

I think you mean "decades". A century is 100 years.

I just don't have any sense of this of destruction or rudeness.

I would have more considered it "misguided". But I don't know, if they can crap on one character, they can crap on more.

Never mind my experience with literature, were main characters died by the end. So my desire to preserve lessened over years because the story is never a promise of a happy ending.

And even when you have a happy ending, you often need to have a few casualties along the way. Voyager had a happy ending, but 39 of the people on the ship did not.

You have ones like Oasis who haven't tried to "find the magic" but releasing new material but have just done the classics which works - and it is defo just for the money but their "Manc dickhead" personalities makes that work

Even an artist has to eat.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Even an artist has to eat.

Agreed...although I doubt that the Gallagher's were worried about their card being declined in Waitrose anytime soon!

Back on topic - agree strongly about how the show suffered for the loss of Seska, especially as she wasn't quite moustache twirling and had layers to her (very pleased to see her return in Shattered)

Suder had potential, and did get a bit of a hero/redemption moment, but don't think Voyager was the series to handle the nuance of such a dark and conflicted character (although they did give that dark side a go later on with the episode where Tuvok gets activated (I think it was Tuvok - should really double check...) by a message from the Alpha Quadrant

 

[Lynx]

I just don't have any sense of this of destruction or rudeness.

But I have.

I guess I would call that love not destruction. I'd rather have a character I was that invested it and enjoy the ride as it were, short or long.

That might work in some cases.

But the destruction of Kes in that horrible episode in season 6 was so meaningless and rude, bringing back a character they had spent two years on making everyone forget, then turning the character into something she never was meant to be and then kill her off (which actually was their intention, Lien made them change their minds about that). And was it a coincident that a letter campaign was going at that time to have Kes back in the series?

Almost as bad with Garak, a character we really could "enjoy the ride with" for 7 seasons.
Then someone writes som quite good books in which Garak was a main character and then all of a sudden come up with a totally unrealistic story in which he's totally destroyed and humiliated and then killed off. Another meaningless waste of a great character for no reason at all.
Not to mention that I was relly looking forward to more books about Garak and Cardassia.

Killing of Gowron was downright stupid. The best Klingon they ever had who could have been a main character in future series, movies and books and they waste him in a totally meaningless plot. I have all respect for those in charge of DS9, most of the time they did a great job. But what were they thinking when they came up with that?

But, my perspective is colored deeply by growing up watching and reading older media. I didn't get "new episodes" of my favorite shows growing up. TOS had been off the air 20+ years, MASH 8, etc. By the time Star Wars Prequels came around the ending was already predetermined.

Never mind my experience with literature, were main characters died by the end. So my desire to preserve lessened over years because the story is never a promise of a happy ending.

Yes, I like Kes, but I'm not so blind to the possibility of characters taking a turn. That has been by literary experience m

I try to avoid fictional stories with sad ends. I've seen to much of that in real life to apprecieate it as entertaining.

In fact, I have some biographies with really sad endingsand sometimes it gets too much of it.

You have ones like Oasis who haven't tried to "find the magic" but releasing new material but have just done the classics which works - and it is defo just for the money but their "Manc dickhead" personalities makes that work

You then have Guns N Roses who would hope we don't remember Chinese Democracy...

But yeah, can't argue with your overall point

Out of interest - seeing as you are a metal fan - have you come across Dream Theatre? Prog metal band who I think would be right up your street if you don't know them already

Dream Theatre is a good band!

True. By killing off Seska and Suder and not establishing other good recurring conflicts, it was full speed ahead down Stagnation Alley.

Although I do like season 3, I get the impression that the writers lost direction when Voyager left Kazon space. That season had more mediocre episodes than season 1 and 2 had.

Which they did. But it was one seriously glorious death, in the meantime.

But it felt meaningless when Spock returned and his return was a bit......complicated, to say the least.

Maybe it would have been better if they had did something like what happened to Bobby Ewing in "Dallas". Kirk wakes up one morning, find Spock on the bridge and realize that he just had a nightmare about his death.

I can imagine the songs made up about them. "The 51-Second Chancellor" and "Worf's Sock Puppet".

That's what they probably would get.

Someone did. That's why Harry's name wound up on the heroes wall. It was a much delayed slap across both the VOY showrunners' faces, and that of the "forever ensign" crowd.

But didn't someone remove Harry's name from that list later on?

It's so Tom Paris.

I think you mean "decades". A century is 100 years.

Yes I did mean decades. A good example that I shouldn't write posts when I have more urgent things to do. I was obviously a bit confused because of that.

Anyway, I corrected it in the original text now.

I would have more considered it "misguided". But I don't know, if they can crap on one character, they can crap on more.

Misguided or mean, I still can't understand why they came up with something so horrible.

And even when you have a happy ending, you often need to have a few casualties along the way. Voyager had a happy ending, but 39 of the people on the ship did not.

There are always casualties in a series which is supposed to have a lot of action and adventures. But some characters are too good to be killed off or and/or be destroyed.

 

[Oddish]

But the destruction of Kes in that horrible episode in season 6 was so meaningless and rude

That was one of Voyager's worst faults. They had no character dossiers to speak of, so they would transform a character in an often appalling way to fit a given plot. Janeway was probably the worst in this regard.

And was it a coincident that a letter campaign was going at that time to have Kes back in the series?

They probably had decided to bring Kes back for an episode, but couldn't figure out how to do it. So they made that mess.

Then someone writes som quite good books in which Garak was a main character and then all of a sudden come up with a totally unrealistic story in which he's totally destroyed and humiliated and then killed off. Another meaningless waste of a great character for no reason at all.

It was a book. They're not canonical. If another series had decided to feature Garak again, they would not have had to explain why he wasn't dead.

Killing of Gowron was downright stupid. The best Klingon they ever had who could have been a main character in future series, movies and books and they waste him in a totally meaningless plot. I have all respect for those in charge of DS9, most of the time they did a great job. But what were they thinking when they came up with that?

Best I can think of is they liked Martok and wanted to have him leading the Empire. Or, they wanted to solidify the Federation/Klingon alliance. Gowron is a wild card, Martok has strong ties with the Federation (through Worf).

But still, it was a crappy decision, and left all three of the main Klingon characters the worse for it.

I try to avoid fictional stories with sad ends. I've seen to much of that in real life to apprecieate it as entertaining.

Same here. But I also hate to leave a character in a miserable situation. Or an unresolved love triangle.

Although I do like season 3, I get the impression that the writers lost direction when Voyager left Kazon space.

At their hands, Voyager was slowly but surely evolving into the "Princess Cruise" format that it ultimately embraced wholeheartedly.

But didn't someone remove Harry's name from that list later on?

There was another version of the wall, but the one with Harry's name is the one ultimately used in the series premiere. They even focused on his name, so there's no doubt. Harry Kim, canonically, reached the rank of Admiral.

It will always be to the Voyager showrunners' shame that the character wasn't honored or acknowledged or developed properly during the show proper. But at least justice has been belatedly given.

Misguided or mean, I still can't understand why they came up with something so horrible.

To paraphrase Darth Vader, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of human stupidity.

But some characters are too good to be killed off or and/or be destroyed.

But I tend to think in terms of the tapestry of the greater narrative. Some characters just serve the story better by departing it than they do remaining in it. It doesn't mean they're bad characters... just that the world has moved on and left them behind.

 

[fireproof78]

And was it a coincident that a letter campaign was going at that time to have Kes back in the series?

Probably.

But what were they thinking when they came up with that?

Drama. War corrupts the best of them all.

try to avoid fictional stories with sad ends. I've seen to much of that in real life to apprecieate it as entertaining.

I grew up with it. Fiction has both and classical and great fiction involving my heroes also involved their deaths. In Star Trek, my favorite episode ends on a somber note.

But, I don't have to read them. So no destruction happens, even if I considered it destruction.

 

[Emissary of the Prophets]

I am not a fan of Kes as a character and I feel the creator wrote themselves into a corner with the Ocampa in general.
I feel Kes should have been a pilot character only. The whole limited age was problematic and didn’t sit right with me back then. I was not a fan of the whole Kes/Paris/Neelix storyline. It made Neelix totally dislikable and Paris came across as a total jerk. Plus, seeing a she had a limited life span, they didn’t age her at all during her time on the show.
I could go on, but I am too tired to keep criticising her a character and answer the initial questions.

 

[Oddish]

Plus, seeing a she had a limited life span, they didn’t age her at all during her time on the show.

That's our Voyager, isn't it? A crew full of potential conflict becomes a happy Starfleet crew. A voyage of deprivation and desperation becomes a Princess cruise. And the character who's supposed to live out a whole lifetime in 7 seasons doesn't change in 3, then leaves the show.

Yes, individual episodes explored these concepts, but they weren't committed to.

 

[Emissary of the Prophets]

That's our Voyager, isn't it? A crew full of potential conflict becomes a happy Starfleet crew. A voyage of deprivation and desperation becomes a Princess cruise. And the character who's supposed to live out a whole lifetime in 7 seasons doesn't change in 3, then leaves the show.

Yes, individual episodes explored these concepts, but they weren't committed to.

I was always annoyed that whenever they acquired new tech or when the Borg part assimilated the ship, they always went back to the Starfleet aesthetic and that they lost crew members but only took in a couple of Borg, Neelix and Kes. It is easy to pick faults and point out the missed opportunities, but I still enjoyed it as a whole.

 

[Lynx]

That was one of Voyager's worst faults. They had no character dossiers to speak of, so they would transform a character in an often appalling way to fit a given plot. Janeway was probably the worst in this regard.

Obviously nothing but bad writing from bad writers.

They probably had decided to bring Kes back for an episode, but couldn't figure out how to do it. So they made that mess.

My theory is that they didn't like that people questioned their reasons for kicking out the character and for witing letters to have her back so they decided to show the finger to those ungrateful people.

It was a book. They're not canonical. If another series had decided to feature Garak again, they would not have had to explain why he wasn't dead.

Yes, but who dares to do that?

I get the impression that TrekLit has it's own "canon". If an autor kills off a main character, no one dares to come up with a book in which the character is still alive and well or come up with a story which corrects the stupidity which was committed in the previous book

Best I can think of is they liked Martok and wanted to have him leading the Empire. Or, they wanted to solidify the Federation/Klingon alliance. Gowron is a wild card, Martok has strong ties with the Federation (through Worf).

But still, it was a crappy decision, and left all three of the main Klingon characters the worse for it.

But that's the big mistake.

Instead of having the Klingon Empire as a strong and mighty force, an ally but a somewhat unpredictable one led by a charismatic and interesting but unpredictable leader like Gowron, something which could create certain tension which could be good for series and books.

Instead they turn the Klingon Empire into just another Federation puppet state, lead by a puppet leader.

Not good for good storytelling.

Same here. But I also hate to leave a character in a miserable situation. Or an unresolved love triangle.

But it's easier to write a character out of a miserable situation or unresolved love triangle if the character is still alive.

At their hands, Voyager was slowly but surely evolving into the "Princess Cruise" format that it ultimately embraced wholeheartedly.

Which is tragic. The series had so much potential and so many good characters. It would have been worth a better fate.

There was another version of the wall, but the one with Harry's name is the one ultimately used in the series premiere. They even focused on his name, so there's no doubt. Harry Kim, canonically, reached the rank of Admiral.

It will always be to the Voyager showrunners' shame that the character wasn't honored or acknowledged or developed properly during the show proper. But at least justice has been belatedly given.

At least something!

Maybe some book author could come up with a harry kim biography in which his journey from "eternal ensign" to Starfleet Admiral could be described. Now tat would be a challenge for a skilled author.

Maybe someone could do the same for Wesley Crusher too, another sadly wasted Starfleet character.

To paraphrase Darth Vader, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of human stupidity.

A statement in which I truly agree!

But I tend to think in terms of the tapestry of the greater narrative. Some characters just serve the story better by departing it than they do remaining in it. It doesn't mean they're bad characters... just that the world has moved on and left them behind.

But rememer the words from the wise Lynx: "It's easier to write a character out of a miserable situation or unresolved love triangle if the character is still alive."

Probably.

I don't think so. They had spent more than two seasons of trying to make everybody forget the character so why bring her back if they didn't like her.
I think that it was all about showing the "finger" to those who wanted her back.

Drama. War corrupts the best of them all.

Not in each and every case. And why Gowron, the best Klingon they ever had?

I grew up with it. Fiction has both and classical and great fiction involving my heroes also involved their deaths. In Star Trek, my favorite episode ends on a somber note.

But, I don't have to read them. So no destruction happens, even if I considered it destruction.

For me it is meaningless destruction, especially when I can't read about those characters in future Star Trek books.

I am not a fan of Kes as a character and I feel the creator wrote themselves into a corner with the Ocampa in general.
I feel Kes should have been a pilot character only. The whole limited age was problematic and didn’t sit right with me back then. I was not a fan of the whole Kes/Paris/Neelix storyline. It made Neelix totally dislikable and Paris came across as a total jerk. Plus, seeing a she had a limited life span, they didn’t age her at all during her time on the show.
I could go on, but I am too tired to keep criticising her a character and answer the initial questions.

I totally disagree with everything you have written here.

That's our Voyager, isn't it? A crew full of potential conflict becomes a happy Starfleet crew. A voyage of deprivation and desperation becomes a Princess cruise. And the character who's supposed to live out a whole lifetime in 7 seasons doesn't change in 3, then leaves the show.

Yes, individual episodes explored these concepts, but they weren't committed to.

Really sad how they messed up a series with such a good premies and great characters.

 

[Emissary of the Prophets]

I totally disagree with everything you have written

I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. It’s just my opinion. Each to their own.

 

[Oddish]

Obviously nothing but bad writing from bad writers.

Sad thing is, given some of the VOY stories we got, these weren't bad writers. They just went (or were forced) in a direction that weakened VOY as a series.

Instead of having the Klingon Empire as a strong and mighty force, an ally but a somewhat unpredictable one led by a charismatic and interesting but unpredictable leader like Gowron, something which could create certain tension which could be good for series and books.

Instead they turn the Klingon Empire into just another Federation puppet state, lead by a puppet leader.

Not good for good storytelling.

Yeah, and the Ferengi were basically the Federation with money. Female rights could have worked with some dialogue tweaks. But adding in taxation and welfare and ending the Nagus's autocracy was unnecessary.

But it's easier to write a character out of a miserable situation or unresolved love triangle if the character is still alive.

That assumes that in the case of a love triangle, that I'm willing to pull a "Secret of NIMH" ending on the character, and have a perfect mate for them just drop in their lap out of nowhere. Or just leave them lonely for the rest of their lives.

Which is tragic. The series had so much potential and so many good characters. It would have been worth a better fate.

Indeed. VOY is what you get when you take a proven franchise, a great premise, and a stellar cast with strong chemistry... then leave it in the hands of people who don't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant.

Maybe some book author could come up with a harry kim biography in which his journey from "eternal ensign" to Starfleet Admiral could be described. Now tat would be a challenge for a skilled author.

His journey of advancement wouldn't be that hard to plot. But you'd essentially have to create a character from scratch. Voyager really doesn't tell us that much about him.

Maybe someone could do the same for Wesley Crusher too, another sadly wasted Starfleet character.

Might be tougher, given his repeated appearance as a Traveler. I didn't really like "Journey's End" as an episode, but I think they ran with it all right.

I don't think so. They had spent more than two seasons of trying to make everybody forget the character so why bring her back if they didn't like her.
I think that it was all about showing the "finger" to those who wanted her back.

If not for the similar crap they pulled with Harry in "Nightingale", I'd probably figure it was a well-intentioned and very badly calculated attempt to bring the character back for an encore, i.e. legit miscalculation rather than carefully calculated malevolence. But as it is... not sure.

Not in each and every case. And why Gowron, the best Klingon they ever had?

I don't know. I think it sucks that they had to perma-kill Weyoun, one of Trek's best villains.

I totally disagree with everything you have written here

Actually, the two of you seem to agree on the business that Kes's abbreviated lifespan was one of the worst aspects of her character. Or have you warmed up to that?

I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. It’s just my opinion. Each to their own.

Probably wise. Lynx is like me; we have... well-established opinions on things. But happily, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Emissary of the Prophets]

Sad thing is, given some of the VOY stories we got, these weren't bad writers. They just went (or were forced) in a direction that weakened VOY as a series.



Yeah, and the Ferengi were basically the Federation with money. Female rights could have worked with some dialogue tweaks. But adding in taxation and welfare and ending the Nagus's autocracy was unnecessary.



That assumes that in the case of a love triangle, that I'm willing to pull a "Secret of NIMH" ending on the character, and have a perfect mate for them just drop in their lap out of nowhere. Or just leave them lonely for the rest of their lives.



Indeed. VOY is what you get when you take a proven franchise, a great premise, and a stellar cast with strong chemistry... then leave it in the hands of people who don't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant.



His journey of advancement wouldn't be that hard to plot. But you'd essentially have to create a character from scratch. Voyager really doesn't tell us that much about him.



Might be tougher, given his repeated appearance as a Traveler. I didn't really like "Journey's End" as an episode, but I think they ran with it all right.



If not for the similar crap they pulled with Harry in "Nightingale", I'd probably figure it was a well-intentioned and very badly calculated attempt to bring the character back for an encore, i.e. legit miscalculation rather than carefully calculated malevolence. But as it is... not sure.



I don't know. I think it sucks that they had to perma-kill Weyoun, one of Trek's best villains.



Actually, the two of you seem to agree on the business that Kes's abbreviated lifespan was one of the worst aspects of her character. Or have you warmed up to that?



Probably wise. Lynx is like me; we have... well-established opinions on things. But happily, we can agree to disagree.

It’s not out of any kind of respect or wisdom. I just don’t see the point.

 

[Oddish]

It’s not out of any kind of respect or wisdom. I just don’t see the point.

Regardless of your motivation, I approve. People who can't handle that not everyone agrees with them are seriously annoying.

Regarding Kes and the others, it's clear that they had some planned development arcs for the characters. Let's see how they did...
Janeway: Did she even have anything planned?
Chakotay: Maquis renegade becomes Janeway's stalwart right hand. It was over in one episode.
Tuvok: A great choice for a static character, a measuring stick for the others' growth.
Torres: Learns to calm down, control her anger, become a worthy chief engineer. It was over in two episodes.
Tom: Redeems himself, regains his self respect. This one happened, I guess.
Neelix: Goes from space rogue to solid crewman. He quickly became comic relief.
Kes: Her arc was predumably supposed to be the amazing journey of life itself. Didn't happen.
Harry: Goes from wide-eyed newbie to seasoned spacefarer. Completely ignored.
EMH: I'm not sure if he was supposed to be discovering his emerging humanity, but that's how it came out.

 

[fireproof78]

I think that it was all about showing the "finger" to those who wanted her back.

I would want hard proof on such malicious intent.

Not in each and every case. And why Gowron, the best Klingon they ever had?

Because that is what war costs. One of the great themes running in later Deep Space Nine is that war comes a high cost, to the governments, politics, and officers serving.

For me it is meaningless destruction, especially when I can't read about those characters in future Star Trek books.

Yes, so many things are destroyed. I cannot understand this point of view if things continue to exist.

I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. It’s just my opinion. Each to their own.

Same here.

 

[TJames03]

IMHO, no, Kes didn’t get a longer lifespan. Realistically, she died trying to get back to Ocampa in “Fury.”

I’m hoping the Ocampa will be mentioned or seen in Starfleet Academy. The Doctor would easily know what happened to Kes and her species by this point.

 

[Lynx]

Sad thing is, given some of the VOY stories we got, these weren't bad writers. They just went (or were forced) in a direction that weakened VOY as a series.

I must agree on that. Episodes like Cold Fire, Persistence Of Vision, Caretaker, Futures End and Basics among others were excellent.

I also have to give Berman, Braga and the others credit for TNG. But what went wrong with VOY?

Yeah, and the Ferengi were basically the Federation with money. Female rights could have worked with some dialogue tweaks. But adding in taxation and welfare and ending the Nagus's autocracy was unnecessary.

I agree on that.

Maybe they just could have kept the Ferengi as they were. OK, the ferengi society was horrible on many aspects seen with Federation eyes. But sometimes it is just that way and at least it can contribute to good stories.

That assumes that in the case of a love triangle, that I'm willing to pull a "Secret of NIMH" ending on the character, and have a perfect mate for them just drop in their lap out of nowhere. Or just leave them lonely for the rest of their lives.

As I often state, there's always a way to create a situation which solves such a problem if one really cares for a certain character.

Indeed. VOY is what you get when you take a proven franchise, a great premise, and a stellar cast with strong chemistry... then leave it in the hands of people who don't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant.

That's correct. But considering how they actually managed TNG for seven seasons, its weird how they could fail on so many aspects when it comes to VOY.

His journey of advancement wouldn't be that hard to plot. But you'd essentially have to create a character from scratch. Voyager really doesn't tell us that much about him.

But there is still a ground to build on from VOY and it would actually be possible to let harry develope from that.

Might be tougher, given his repeated appearance as a Traveler. I didn't really like "Journey's End" as an episode, but I think they ran with it all right.

So much bigger reason to take him away from all that Traveler crap.

As for Journey's End, I thought the plot with those native Americans and how to solve the problem was quite OK as such, even if there are some plotholes there too.

First of all, how many planets with Native Americans are there in Federation Space. We had Dorvan V in Journey's End, we had Trebus where Chakotay's tribe lived which we could read about in jeri taylor's book Pathways and we have that planet in TOS where Kirk and his crew encounters Native Americans. Not to mention how Cardassian actions later on created a situation in which The Maquis showed up. However, still an interesting scenario in the episode.

But Wesley?

I mean, so far his story had been interesting. I found it a pity that he was dumped after four seasons of TNG but his appearance in The Game was good, there should have been more such episodes and The First Duty was great. It showed how a person could make a big mistake but finally realize it and stand up for what he did.

But then they ruin everything by letting Wesley show up as a spoiled brat who interfere in something he had nothing to do with, even if his actions for the Native Americans on that planet were honorable in a way and then let him leave with that slimy Traveler in some mumbo-jumbo plot and after that don't do anything to get him back on course again.

I mean, they could have come up with a new series in which Wesley joins a ship and manage to work his way up to become Captain of that ship. That could have been great.

Instead, PRO continues with that Traveler mumbo-jumbo which is a reason why I might suspect that Kes would be treated as badly if she was brought into the series. There's a risk that the destruction of the character would continue.

If not for the similar crap they pulled with Harry in "Nightingale", I'd probably figure it was a well-intentioned and very badly calculated attempt to bring the character back for an encore, i.e. legit miscalculation rather than carefully calculated malevolence. But as it is... not sure.

I still find it weird that they did bring her back after spending two and a half year to make people forget the character and when they did bring her back, it was only to destroy.
I can't help but seeing an evil intent in it.

I don't know. I think it sucks that they had to perma-kill Weyoun, one of Trek's best villains.

I agree on that because Weyoun is a great character.

However, due to how the Vorta manage to clone their people, it's quite simple to bring back Weyoun by simply make a new clone. I mean, we did have at least three Weyouns in DS9.

And if I'm correct, I do think that a new Weyoun showed up in some book in later years and that version of Weyoun is still alive and well.

Actually, the two of you seem to agree on the business that Kes's abbreviated lifespan was one of the worst aspects of her character. Or have you warmed up to that?

Yes, we do actually agree on that one. As I see it, the nine year lifespan was unrealistic and hampering for the character.

There were hints about prolonging her lifespan in episodes like Cold Fire so why not simply do it?

Probably wise. Lynx is like me; we have... well-established opinions on things. But happily, we can agree to disagree.

Yes and we can have very interesting and constructive discussions as well!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Nimoy was a dangerous man.

"Screw you all, I'm not coming back unless you kill Spock, because I am sick of this shit."

"Screw you all, I'm not coming back unless you let me direct, because I'm sick of this shit."

 

[Oddish]

I also have to give Berman, Braga and the others credit for TNG. But what went wrong with VOY?

TNG happened. And they thought they could bottle lightning a second time by making VOY more like TNG.

Contrastingly, DS9 chose to be DS9: gritty, serialized, and packed with recurring characters. And realistic promotions.

Maybe they just could have kept the Ferengi as they were. OK, the ferengi society was horrible on many aspects seen with Federation eyes. But sometimes it is just that way and at least it can contribute to good stories.

I don't think they could have handled not giving females more status, it was the 90's after all. But the way they did it was ridiculous. It was effectively like saying that Susan B. Anthony could have gotten women the right to vote back in the 1800's, by seducing the President.

As I often state, there's always a way to create a situation which solves such a problem if one really cares for a certain character.

Indeed, that's true. But I believe that in the context of the greater story, it's sometimes better to give a character a glorious death... even if you like them.

But there is still a ground to build on from VOY and it would actually be possible to let harry develope from that.

Certainly. But the challenge would be to turn him from a glorified redshirt to a fully fleshed out protagonist.

Instead, PRO continues with that Traveler mumbo-jumbo which is a reason why I might suspect that Kes would be treated as badly if she was brought into the series. There's a risk that the destruction of the character would continue.

Sometimes, a character doesn't get developed the way you would have liked.

I still find it weird that they did bring her back after spending two and a half year to make people forget the character and when they did bring her back, it was only to destroy.
I can't help but seeing an evil intent in it.

I probably would have figured that it was just genuine cluelessness... if not for their treatment of Harry in "Nightingale". If they'll snap the fans' garters once, I'm willing to say it's conceivable that they'd do it again.

However, due to how the Vorta manage to clone their people, it's quite simple to bring back Weyoun by simply make a new clone. I mean, we did have at least three Weyouns in DS9.

Five. Weyouns 4 thru 8. And after Garak cold-blooded cut him down in the last episode, the female founder said "that was Weyoun's last clone". The idea being that the character was permanently killed off. It seemed unnecessary to me.

In my proposed DS9 8th season (it's not on this site yet), I not only bring him back, but promote him to regular cast member.

There were hints about prolonging her lifespan in episodes like Cold Fire so why not simply do it?

Same reason they didn't have her experience life's journey in the series proper, as they presumably originally intended to. They lost interest in the character.

"Screw you all, I'm not coming back unless you let me direct, because I'm sick of this s***."

But when they let him direct, he totally rocked it.

 

[Lynx]

TNG happened. And they thought they could bottle lightning a second time by making VOY more like TNG.

Contrastingly, DS9 chose to be DS9: gritty, serialized, and packed with recurring characters. And realistic promotions.

It was a big mistake to try to turn VOY into a new TNG.

Look at the different NCIS series, the different CSI series and the different Stargate series. They were all different and therefore attracted many fans.

OK, Stargate Universe was a total failure and NCIS New Orleans started to go down after season 2 when a good character was dumped and everything started to circle around certain agents mental problems. However, i'm not familiar with the details and who was responsible for what in each of those series so I won't go into details now.

DS9 gained a lot of fans just by being different from TNG and also for being a series of high quality when it came to storytelling. That gave the series the most loyal fans in the Star Trek community.

I don't think they could have handled not giving females more status, it was the 90's after all. But the way they did it was ridiculous. It was effectively like saying that Susan B. Anthony could have gotten women the right to vote back in the 1800's, by seducing the President.

I can see your point here. But that problem could actually have been solved or at least corrected without having to wipe out the whole Ferengi culture, no matter how repulsive it may have been.

Indeed, that's true. But I believe that in the context of the greater story, it's sometimes better to give a character a glorious death... even if you like them.

Well, that's your opinion. I have a different one which says "never waste a great character".

Certainly. But the challenge would be to turn him from a glorified redshirt to a fully fleshed out protagonist.

It could work with good writers.

Sometimes, a character doesn't get developed the way you would have liked.

Maybe not. But that's not a reason for making the character look like a fool or destroy it.

I probably would have figured that it was just genuine cluelessness... if not for their treatment of Harry in "Nightingale". If they'll snap the fans' garters once, I'm willing to say it's conceivable that they'd do it again.

Well, it has happened too many times to be a coincident.

Five. Weyouns 4 thru 8. And after Garak cold-blooded cut him down in the last episode, the female founder said "that was Weyoun's last clone". The idea being that the character was permanently killed off. It seemed unnecessary to me.

In my proposed DS9 8th season (it's not on this site yet), I not only bring him back, but promote him to regular cast member.

I checked with Memory Beta and later Weyouns have obviously showed up in alternate timelines.

But was the female Founder absolutely right when she claimed that "it was Weyoun's last clone"?

I mean, I find it plausible that they had more Weyoun clones at the Founders homeworld. After all, the first ones were created there.

So I see it possible that a new Weyoun can show up.

Your idea about making him a regular cast member is great!

Not to mention his little hobby besides serving the Dominion, about being a member of the Galaxy-known song group The Vortas who are touring the Galaxy performing songs by the legendary 20th century song group "The Mamas And The Papas", singing alternate versions of their songs, like "Founder, Founder", "I Saw The Female Founder Last Night", "Dedicated To The Founder I Love", "Look Through My Spaceship Window" and "Gamma Quadrant Dreaming"!


Here they are, performing at Vic's Lounge at station Deep Space Nine, singing the song "Founder, Founder" together with a holographic image of the Female Founder.

Same reason they didn't have her experience life's journey in the series proper, as they presumably originally intended to. They lost interest in the character.

In that case, they weren't doing their job and should have been fired.

But when they let him direct, he totally rocked it.

Yes, he did!

 

[Oddish]

DS9 gained a lot of fans just by being different from TNG and also for being a series of high quality when it came to storytelling. That gave the series the most loyal fans in the Star Trek community.

Yes. But its ratings were low during its run. People didn't really start appreciating it until well after it ended.

It was a big mistake to try to turn VOY into a new TNG.

While I agree with you in general, remember that we're both playing Monday morning quarterback, and we don't have all the information. If the choices were "make TNG lite or get canceled", it's expected that they chose the option that got them a paycheck

I can see your point here. But that problem could actually have been solved or at least corrected without having to wipe out the whole Ferengi culture, no matter how repulsive it may have been.

The only really repulsive element was how they treated women. And it could easily have been stated that there was a groundswell of females who were demanding more equitable treatment. Instead of having Ishka change everything single-handedly, make her and Pel two voices in an increasingly loud chorus, onr the male establishment could no longer ignore. Not revolution, not transformation, but evolution.

Well, that's your opinion. I have a different one which says "never waste a great character".

I agree totally. Where we disagree is that I don't believe sacrificing a character for the good of the story is necessarily a waste.

It could work with good writers.

It wouldn't even be that hard. Trying to write a Janeway story would be crazy difficult because many of her actions contradict many others, so writing a proper character dossier would be hard. Harry, with far fewer contradicting actions, is easier to get a handle on.

But was the female Founder absolutely right when she claimed that "it was Weyoun's last clone"?

I mean, I find it plausible that they had more Weyoun clones at the Founders homeworld. After all, the first ones were created there.

I did the same. The main cast member I envisioned was Weyoun 9. And, because I sometimes will save a character I like same way you will, he was handled by Sloan 2.

Here they are, performing at Vic's Lounge at station Deep Space Nine, singing the song "Founder, Founder" together with a holographic image of the Female Founder.

Nice.

In that case, they weren't doing their job and should have been fired.

Problem is, it was the people who were supposed to be doing the firing who were messing things up. Like Rick "let's just make another Dax" Berman and Brannon "someone gotta be duh ensign" Braga.

When the blind leadeth the blind, get out of their way!