A few things to discuss about Kes

[Oddish]

Not to mention that the series was fresh and full of ideas, something which started to fade in season 3.

True. By killing off Seska and Suder and not establishing other good recurring conflicts, it was full speed ahead down Stagnation Alley.

Killing off Spock in that movie was a mistake. They should have realized that Star Trek would have problems without him and should have let him stay alive if they could manage to persuade Nimoy to continue as Spock or at least maybe return some time in the future.

Which they did. But it was one seriously glorious death, in the meantime.

Better to let Worf and Martok live with that disgrace. At least none of them were killed off or ruined to the point of no salvation.

I can imagine the songs made up about them. "The 51-Second Chancellor" and "Worf's Sock Puppet".

There should be some decent person out there who would dare to do something about it.

Someone did. That's why Harry's name wound up on the heroes wall. It was a much delayed slap across both the VOY showrunners' faces, and that of the "forever ensign" crowd.

It is actually funny! I like Tom's little joke there!

It's so Tom Paris.

But fortunately, there are bands who have managed to last for centuries and still manages to come up with good music.

I think you mean "decades". A century is 100 years.

I just don't have any sense of this of destruction or rudeness.

I would have more considered it "misguided". But I don't know, if they can crap on one character, they can crap on more.

Never mind my experience with literature, were main characters died by the end. So my desire to preserve lessened over years because the story is never a promise of a happy ending.

And even when you have a happy ending, you often need to have a few casualties along the way. Voyager had a happy ending, but 39 of the people on the ship did not.

You have ones like Oasis who haven't tried to "find the magic" but releasing new material but have just done the classics which works - and it is defo just for the money but their "Manc dickhead" personalities makes that work

Even an artist has to eat.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Even an artist has to eat.

Agreed...although I doubt that the Gallagher's were worried about their card being declined in Waitrose anytime soon!

Back on topic - agree strongly about how the show suffered for the loss of Seska, especially as she wasn't quite moustache twirling and had layers to her (very pleased to see her return in Shattered)

Suder had potential, and did get a bit of a hero/redemption moment, but don't think Voyager was the series to handle the nuance of such a dark and conflicted character (although they did give that dark side a go later on with the episode where Tuvok gets activated (I think it was Tuvok - should really double check...) by a message from the Alpha Quadrant

 

[Lynx]

I just don't have any sense of this of destruction or rudeness.

But I have.

I guess I would call that love not destruction. I'd rather have a character I was that invested it and enjoy the ride as it were, short or long.

That might work in some cases.

But the destruction of Kes in that horrible episode in season 6 was so meaningless and rude, bringing back a character they had spent two years on making everyone forget, then turning the character into something she never was meant to be and then kill her off (which actually was their intention, Lien made them change their minds about that). And was it a coincident that a letter campaign was going at that time to have Kes back in the series?

Almost as bad with Garak, a character we really could "enjoy the ride with" for 7 seasons.
Then someone writes som quite good books in which Garak was a main character and then all of a sudden come up with a totally unrealistic story in which he's totally destroyed and humiliated and then killed off. Another meaningless waste of a great character for no reason at all.
Not to mention that I was relly looking forward to more books about Garak and Cardassia.

Killing of Gowron was downright stupid. The best Klingon they ever had who could have been a main character in future series, movies and books and they waste him in a totally meaningless plot. I have all respect for those in charge of DS9, most of the time they did a great job. But what were they thinking when they came up with that?

But, my perspective is colored deeply by growing up watching and reading older media. I didn't get "new episodes" of my favorite shows growing up. TOS had been off the air 20+ years, MASH 8, etc. By the time Star Wars Prequels came around the ending was already predetermined.

Never mind my experience with literature, were main characters died by the end. So my desire to preserve lessened over years because the story is never a promise of a happy ending.

Yes, I like Kes, but I'm not so blind to the possibility of characters taking a turn. That has been by literary experience m

I try to avoid fictional stories with sad ends. I've seen to much of that in real life to apprecieate it as entertaining.

In fact, I have some biographies with really sad endingsand sometimes it gets too much of it.

You have ones like Oasis who haven't tried to "find the magic" but releasing new material but have just done the classics which works - and it is defo just for the money but their "Manc dickhead" personalities makes that work

You then have Guns N Roses who would hope we don't remember Chinese Democracy...

But yeah, can't argue with your overall point

Out of interest - seeing as you are a metal fan - have you come across Dream Theatre? Prog metal band who I think would be right up your street if you don't know them already

Dream Theatre is a good band!

True. By killing off Seska and Suder and not establishing other good recurring conflicts, it was full speed ahead down Stagnation Alley.

Although I do like season 3, I get the impression that the writers lost direction when Voyager left Kazon space. That season had more mediocre episodes than season 1 and 2 had.

Which they did. But it was one seriously glorious death, in the meantime.

But it felt meaningless when Spock returned and his return was a bit......complicated, to say the least.

Maybe it would have been better if they had did something like what happened to Bobby Ewing in "Dallas". Kirk wakes up one morning, find Spock on the bridge and realize that he just had a nightmare about his death.

I can imagine the songs made up about them. "The 51-Second Chancellor" and "Worf's Sock Puppet".

That's what they probably would get.

Someone did. That's why Harry's name wound up on the heroes wall. It was a much delayed slap across both the VOY showrunners' faces, and that of the "forever ensign" crowd.

But didn't someone remove Harry's name from that list later on?

It's so Tom Paris.

I think you mean "decades". A century is 100 years.

Yes I did mean decades. A good example that I shouldn't write posts when I have more urgent things to do. I was obviously a bit confused because of that.

Anyway, I corrected it in the original text now.

I would have more considered it "misguided". But I don't know, if they can crap on one character, they can crap on more.

Misguided or mean, I still can't understand why they came up with something so horrible.

And even when you have a happy ending, you often need to have a few casualties along the way. Voyager had a happy ending, but 39 of the people on the ship did not.

There are always casualties in a series which is supposed to have a lot of action and adventures. But some characters are too good to be killed off or and/or be destroyed.

 

[Oddish]

But the destruction of Kes in that horrible episode in season 6 was so meaningless and rude

That was one of Voyager's worst faults. They had no character dossiers to speak of, so they would transform a character in an often appalling way to fit a given plot. Janeway was probably the worst in this regard.

And was it a coincident that a letter campaign was going at that time to have Kes back in the series?

They probably had decided to bring Kes back for an episode, but couldn't figure out how to do it. So they made that mess.

Then someone writes som quite good books in which Garak was a main character and then all of a sudden come up with a totally unrealistic story in which he's totally destroyed and humiliated and then killed off. Another meaningless waste of a great character for no reason at all.

It was a book. They're not canonical. If another series had decided to feature Garak again, they would not have had to explain why he wasn't dead.

Killing of Gowron was downright stupid. The best Klingon they ever had who could have been a main character in future series, movies and books and they waste him in a totally meaningless plot. I have all respect for those in charge of DS9, most of the time they did a great job. But what were they thinking when they came up with that?

Best I can think of is they liked Martok and wanted to have him leading the Empire. Or, they wanted to solidify the Federation/Klingon alliance. Gowron is a wild card, Martok has strong ties with the Federation (through Worf).

But still, it was a crappy decision, and left all three of the main Klingon characters the worse for it.

I try to avoid fictional stories with sad ends. I've seen to much of that in real life to apprecieate it as entertaining.

Same here. But I also hate to leave a character in a miserable situation. Or an unresolved love triangle.

Although I do like season 3, I get the impression that the writers lost direction when Voyager left Kazon space.

At their hands, Voyager was slowly but surely evolving into the "Princess Cruise" format that it ultimately embraced wholeheartedly.

But didn't someone remove Harry's name from that list later on?

There was another version of the wall, but the one with Harry's name is the one ultimately used in the series premiere. They even focused on his name, so there's no doubt. Harry Kim, canonically, reached the rank of Admiral.

It will always be to the Voyager showrunners' shame that the character wasn't honored or acknowledged or developed properly during the show proper. But at least justice has been belatedly given.

Misguided or mean, I still can't understand why they came up with something so horrible.

To paraphrase Darth Vader, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of human stupidity.

But some characters are too good to be killed off or and/or be destroyed.

But I tend to think in terms of the tapestry of the greater narrative. Some characters just serve the story better by departing it than they do remaining in it. It doesn't mean they're bad characters... just that the world has moved on and left them behind.

 

[fireproof78]

And was it a coincident that a letter campaign was going at that time to have Kes back in the series?

Probably.

But what were they thinking when they came up with that?

Drama. War corrupts the best of them all.

try to avoid fictional stories with sad ends. I've seen to much of that in real life to apprecieate it as entertaining.

I grew up with it. Fiction has both and classical and great fiction involving my heroes also involved their deaths. In Star Trek, my favorite episode ends on a somber note.

But, I don't have to read them. So no destruction happens, even if I considered it destruction.