A Federation without money and payment on DS9
- Thread starter Lynx
- Start date
It indeed is!
You can also use fed credits to save money in your local currency. If you're operating in a money-based economy, you presumably pay for your energy, and replicating consumes a fair bit of energy. So even if you'd be capable of replicating the stuff yourself, you can use fed credits to access Federation replicators and thus save in your energy bill.
In the Encyclopedia: "Cardassian monetary unit"
My assumptions would be that on assignments where currency would be used by local businesses, all personnel on that base/planet would be issued a credit card/expense account for them to procure goods and services. The credits don't belong to the officer in question, but the Federation--which will cover those costs through trade and commerce.
Money and the pursuit of wealth is no longer a driving concern for Federation citizens, but the organisation as a whole would utilise some form of monetary system in order to function. Of course we did see some Starfleeters play (and win) dabo, which saw them walking away with latinum, which they could then use however they wished without utilising their expenses.
That's how I'd see it working anyway.
Money and the pursuit of wealth is no longer a driving concern for Federation citizens, but the organisation as a whole would utilise some form of monetary system in order to function. Of course we did see some Starfleeters play (and win) dabo, which saw them walking away with latinum, which they could then use however they wished without utilising their expenses.
That's how I'd see it working anyway.
I am one of those people who has argued fervently for the 'no currency/stipend' model elsewhere on the forums (thereby winding up those vehemently against such evidence as the characters outright saying that's how it is.)
I have recently seen a photo of a tng prop about some kind of planetary government having to pay 150k federation credits per year for something or another (I think it was the barzan Wormhole agreement, but don't remember) however, the planets concerned were not federation member worlds, so this supports the ' currency for non federation citizens operating in the federation or on its borders' model. However, since it was unlikely to be visible on screen, it's use as evidence for either side of the ongoing debate is questionable.
I have recently seen a photo of a tng prop about some kind of planetary government having to pay 150k federation credits per year for something or another (I think it was the barzan Wormhole agreement, but don't remember) however, the planets concerned were not federation member worlds, so this supports the ' currency for non federation citizens operating in the federation or on its borders' model. However, since it was unlikely to be visible on screen, it's use as evidence for either side of the ongoing debate is questionable.
I tend to agree. However minuscule matter/energy converters have rendered the value of various things within the Federation, I'm sure they nonetheless recognize the market value of those things outside the Federation and negotiate accordingly. I would wager heavily that the Federation Credit is closely tied to time -- as in the time it takes to acquire/absorb/produce the energy they use to convert into matter.
I'm curious to know why this conversation always centers on what individuals do and need. Individuals don't make currency. States do, and they do it to facilitate trade and banking, not help someone get a loaf of bread.
Only Earth and Earth humans are without money, while Starfleet has money even if it might prefer not using it, and Federation member worlds have money. Janeway recounts a story where a Vulcan merchant ripped her off because he noted she was part of Starfleet. That tells us Vulcans use money, that Starfleet personnel have money, and that they have access to larger than normal sums, or that they are known for being easy with prices. Starfleet personnel having money is further supported by Dr. Crusher buying a bolt of fabric in the very first episode of TNG, she tells the merchant to send the fee to the ship's account.
There are a few ways Starfleet might handle this such as using a salary, that is easy and has real life historical precedence. Alternatively, the ship's account might be a common pool of money everyone on the ship freely has access to; this fits the sense of trust and responsibility Starfleet personnel are supposed to have, and has its own precedence in how very tight knit communities have shared labor and services in the past. Barter as a primitive economic base within a society is an allegorical myth. It also fits with Sisko's actions on DS9.
Sisko threatens Quark with charging him rent, Quark knows Sisko is well within his rights to do so, but refrains out of a combination of social reasons and simple lack of need for the money. I believe there is also an implication that the replimat is free for everyone on the station, yet it doesn't seem to hurt any of the businesses. Apparently experience and novelty wins against frugality. This brings us to Jake Sisko not having any money.
My guess is he was repeating a simple line everyone learns at an early age, "Earth humans don't need money," and suffering from ignorance. Outside of property rights, a moneyless system would be rather easy given open source designs created by replicators. As for property, my guess is people own their property, and can keep it however long they want, but there is no telling what happens when they want to pass that property on, at least outside of their family. I seriously doubt the Picard family could have a vineyard without inheritable property rights, but I digress.
I believe Jake had access to money and just didn't know it because he never had a need for money until that moment. As with the above, Starfleet has money, Starfleet was an Earth institution far longer than it has been a Federation institution. It could be argued Starfleet has money simply as a way to interact with monetary economies it encounters in space. If that is the case, then Earth needs money to interact with alien economies as well. There may have been national barter agreements though. These aren't like modern trade agreements where countries agree on policy, and simply let businesses do business, so there is definitely something odd here.
There are a few ways Starfleet might handle this such as using a salary, that is easy and has real life historical precedence. Alternatively, the ship's account might be a common pool of money everyone on the ship freely has access to; this fits the sense of trust and responsibility Starfleet personnel are supposed to have, and has its own precedence in how very tight knit communities have shared labor and services in the past. Barter as a primitive economic base within a society is an allegorical myth. It also fits with Sisko's actions on DS9.
Sisko threatens Quark with charging him rent, Quark knows Sisko is well within his rights to do so, but refrains out of a combination of social reasons and simple lack of need for the money. I believe there is also an implication that the replimat is free for everyone on the station, yet it doesn't seem to hurt any of the businesses. Apparently experience and novelty wins against frugality. This brings us to Jake Sisko not having any money.
My guess is he was repeating a simple line everyone learns at an early age, "Earth humans don't need money," and suffering from ignorance. Outside of property rights, a moneyless system would be rather easy given open source designs created by replicators. As for property, my guess is people own their property, and can keep it however long they want, but there is no telling what happens when they want to pass that property on, at least outside of their family. I seriously doubt the Picard family could have a vineyard without inheritable property rights, but I digress.
I believe Jake had access to money and just didn't know it because he never had a need for money until that moment. As with the above, Starfleet has money, Starfleet was an Earth institution far longer than it has been a Federation institution. It could be argued Starfleet has money simply as a way to interact with monetary economies it encounters in space. If that is the case, then Earth needs money to interact with alien economies as well. There may have been national barter agreements though. These aren't like modern trade agreements where countries agree on policy, and simply let businesses do business, so there is definitely something odd here.
Okay, I'll take a crack at it. I might not get all the Trek details right, so please correct me if I'm obviously wrong.
Starfleet officers do not get paid. If you're a Starfleet officer, your work is your own reward. This sentiment doesn't obviously apply to other members of the Federation, even human civilians. There is still scarcity, despite the existence of replimats. Replimats do not replicate perfectly, especially food and drink (cite: the many, many characters who complain about replicator fare and/or stash bottles of something-or-other away for special occasions). For instance, take Sisko's restaurant in New Orleans. The restaurant is usually packed; in one episode, there's a line of customers waiting for lunch. In economic theory, price = cost (roughly). Even if there is not money, people place value on time, since the time spent waiting for lunch could have been spent doing any number of other entertaining things (assuming people don't work for income and therefore there is no income foregone by waiting). So even though Sisko's meals are presumably "free," they come at the hidden cost of waiting for them. The supply side of the equation is tougher, but perhaps it works the same way: perhaps Sisko has to wait in line for the fresh ingredients he uses to make his food. Labor costs are assumed away by pretending that people just love washing dishes or something, and don't have anything better to do with their time (like waiting in line). Anyway, that's a bit of what the Earth-side Federation economy might look like in a post-scarcity world where only time is scarce. Lots of waiting in line.
Now, onto Deep Space Nine. Let's assume that most vendors aren't giving away anything, no matter how long you wait for it. Instead of spending time waiting, you spend that time doing things of value to someone else in exchange for your currency of choice (and then you just convert to other currencies if needed). So if you're O'Brien, maybe you fix a personal, non-station computer/padd for someone for a fee. Or you barter your services for a good, and then sell the good on the open market. What's interesting to students of economics is that the Deep Space Nine scenario of doing things of value for others in exchange for currency is greater in overall social welfare since instead of waiting in line and doing nothing of value for anyone, you've done something that makes someone happier in the same amount of time, and you've made yourself happier. It's the great win-win of trade. It's interesting we never (?) see an officer doing work for money, though we do see them using money a lot.
Finally, I don't buy the idea of credits, because as a poster said upthread, Quark has no reason to value a form of currency that isn't backed by anything. Credits can't be money because the Federation is moneyless. If they had value, they would be de facto money.
In Caretaker Quark quite definitely requires payment from Harry Kim. He even asks Harry Kim before being interrupted by Tom Paris whether Kim wants to pay cash or credit(I think Roddenberry was probably turning in his grave at this point). I will also note that Caretaker was written by Rick Berman, Piller, and Jeri Taylor and of course was the series premier of Voyager so I don't think it can be chalked up to some junior writer's script that just accidentally passed through.
I believe it is established in Voyager that the Chez Sandrine restaurant in Marseilles was "owned" by the same family for over 400 years. Also some Federation citizens such as Ezri Dax have inheritances or business interests outside of the Federation such as on New Sydney. Even the vague reference to Fort Knox being obsolete in Voyager "Dark Frontier" is not all that clear as even today in a fiat money currency system Fort Knox doesn't have the same importance that it did back in the 1960's Goldfinger era.
**I have heard from different sources that Ron Moore was the most loyal to Roddenberry's "no money" vision and thus not surprisingly is responsible for both DS9 "In the Cards" and "First Contact" I consider "In the Cards" to be quite inconsistent as other officers such as Jadzia are already established to have quite a bit of latinum just from gambling at Quarks. (I believe there are also over the years several uncredited Human dabo girls(And one credited in Voyager).
I believe it is established in Voyager that the Chez Sandrine restaurant in Marseilles was "owned" by the same family for over 400 years. Also some Federation citizens such as Ezri Dax have inheritances or business interests outside of the Federation such as on New Sydney. Even the vague reference to Fort Knox being obsolete in Voyager "Dark Frontier" is not all that clear as even today in a fiat money currency system Fort Knox doesn't have the same importance that it did back in the 1960's Goldfinger era.
**I have heard from different sources that Ron Moore was the most loyal to Roddenberry's "no money" vision and thus not surprisingly is responsible for both DS9 "In the Cards" and "First Contact" I consider "In the Cards" to be quite inconsistent as other officers such as Jadzia are already established to have quite a bit of latinum just from gambling at Quarks. (I believe there are also over the years several uncredited Human dabo girls(And one credited in Voyager).
Another "Roddenberry rule" that was repealed after he died from what I heard was never allowing the captain to be seen bleeding. Supposedly Kate Mulgrew insisted that this be gotten rid of in the early days of Voyager.
Note: While Patrick Stewart is and was a more prestigious actor Mulgrew and Avery Brooks had far more experience in Hollywood and US TV production(Mrs Columbo, Cheers, Spencer for Hire etc) than Stewart did and supposedly threw there weight around the set and writer's room more often.
Note: While Patrick Stewart is and was a more prestigious actor Mulgrew and Avery Brooks had far more experience in Hollywood and US TV production(Mrs Columbo, Cheers, Spencer for Hire etc) than Stewart did and supposedly threw there weight around the set and writer's room more often.
Auberjonois, Shimmerman, and Visitor would give the writers and producers an earful about stories and character development, Brooks was actually somewhat dispassionate, and Piller and Behr feared he might quit after the second season out of disinterest. He did significantly influence the atmosphere of the set, where he demanded seriousness and professionalism (although Siddig insists that this was more because he was the series lead, not anything particular).
I'd buy that earth doesn't use money, but nor the entirety of starfleet. Starfleet has new planets join them all the time. Planets that use currency. I can't see them just going "hey you guys don't use currency now okay? You can have that sorted out by next week right?" Even if they were given replicator technology. So earth, and the majority of humans don't use money. Other species do. You want to drink at an earth bar? Cool. Want to drink at quarks? Get some Latinum. Starfleet can set down some general rules for planets to join, but their not dictators saying "use our system and abandon your financial system or else".
Yup...it's not like any country had or wanted to take up the currency of another when joining up with them...Oh hang on. (the Dollar, The Euro...both of which are similar 'supranational' type groups to the federation)
Don't forget that giving up certain things may be outweighed by other advantages of joining (give up money...because now you have replicators and transporters it's all but worthless. Only food snobs who claim to be able to tell the difference between foods on a molecular level will care, not least as they probably love withholding a tip if their lettuce doesn't have a certain chromatic range. In fact...this is a phaser. Go shoot some critics. It will make your world a better place...just make sure to use the stun setting if federation laws have come in already....I hate holodeck reconstructions of crime scenes involving Michael Winner and Gordon Ramsey.)
It could be that the Federation has an external economy but no internal one. The Federation trades services and resources with other civilizations in exchange for some inherently valuable resource such as Latinum. When Federation citizens are interacting with another civilization that uses money, they pay with credits which are backed by Latinum and can be exchanged at your local Starfleet Accounting office.
I guess that makes Rom's choice of wife somewhat serendipitous. What better name for a Ferengi's mate than money?
I never heard about that. I wonder when it started. Kirk bled plenty in TOS and the movies. Picard bleeds at least two years prior to Roddenberry's death in 1991 in Who Watches the Watchers (which aired in '89), and the following year in Final Mission. I can't remember any specific examples of Sisko bleeding, but I'm sure he must have, if not during the early seasons, then for sure during the war. In any case, it seems to me there was plenty of blood extracted from Trek captains such that Kate Mulgrew would have nothing to complain about.
This actually explains a lot. Sisko always seemed to be more than a little aloof in the early seasons. I always thought that was part and parcel of the writing (which, in the first two seasons, really left a lot to be desired), but it makes a lot of sense that Brooks' lack of passion would have a deleterious effect on his character and the show. I wonder what it would have been like if he'd actually brought his A-Game... Although, in fairness to him, I can't imagine it being all that exciting as an actor to find oneself playing Alien-Hop-Scotch. Like so many of us, he probably just went to work, did his job as a professional, collected his check, and went home in the evening to do something that was actually rewarding.
