A Federation without money and payment on DS9

[Bad Thoughts]

This actually explains a lot. Sisko always seemed to be more than a little aloof in the early seasons. I always thought that was part and parcel of the writing (which, in the first two seasons, really left a lot to be desired), but it makes a lot of sense that Brooks' lack of passion would have a deleterious effect on his character and the show. I wonder what it would have been like if he'd actually brought his A-Game... Although, in fairness to him, I can't imagine it being all that exciting as an actor to find oneself playing Alien-Hop-Scotch. Like so many of us, he probably just went to work, did his job as a professional, collected his check, and went home in the evening to do something that was actually rewarding.

I think the writing had still a lot to do with it. From what I can tell, Brooks was very much interested in the father-son relationship presented in Emissary, and I think it shows during any scenes he had with Lofton. He could also be strong in his scenes with Farrell, where the characters were reliving their past histories. I think he was there for the paycheck. Indeed, he was still teaching at Rutgers concurrently with the show, sometimes filming lessons while in uniform.

IMO, any lack of effort on Brooks part was more symptomatic of the show as a whole. That first season feels like TNG-lite in many respects. Piller very quickly started calling for a change in direction, which led to Duet and In the Hands of the Prophets. In Season 2, he pushed harder for the show to be different. Odo became more prominent because Auberjonois was disgruntled at the direction of his character. By mid-season two, there are efforts to explore more of what made Sisko unique. If anything made a big difference, it was making Behr the showrunner. Among all the elements he introduced, he made the writers attend performances of Brooks one-man show about Paul Robson: he wanted them to see not only what Brooks was capable of, but what motivated him.

 

[Lance]

Bear in mind we see something very close to the scenario posited by the OP actually happen in the pilot episode of Voyager. Quark tries to sell Ensign Kim some piece of tat and, after much backwards and forth, the question "Cash or credit?" rears it's head. From this I deduce two things:

1. Quark does charge the Starfleet officers for his services.

2. The officers are given options on how they want to pay.

Quark never once considers the possibility that Harry might not have money available, and Harry never raises this either, so it seems reasonable to assume that Starfleet officers 'in the field' are given some kind of allowance for spending with races that do use money, even if back home on Earth (or wherever) they've abandoned money.

TNG's pilot episode features a similar occurrence, with Doctor Bev purchasing fabric at an alien bazaar that she asks to be charged to an account on the Enterprise.

My conclusion is that even poor, dumb Harry is given some kind of electronic account, and weekly allowance, through which he can buy things on outposts like Deep Space Nine. And even though DS9 is technically a Federation-run facility, it really belongs to the Bajorans, and the traders on the promenade are independent business people from all different corners of the galaxy, not all of them Federation citizens. So yes, while it has Starfleet administrators, the Starfleet officer crew do probably get paid, and pay for, services just like everybody else does....

... everybody except for Morn, of course, who sleeps on the promenade at night, and sits at the end of the bar waiting for someone to take pity on him and buy him a drink during the day, like some kind of galactic 'Wimpy' from the Popeye comic strips.

 

[kkt]

Morn has his own quarters and plenty of latinum to buy his own drinks. We saw it in Who Mourns for Morn.

I think the Starfleet crew get paid pocket money that lets them buy drinks or holosuite time at Quarks, but they don't get paid a full salary and they don't have to pay rent on their quarters or for food replicated in their quarters or at the replomat.
That's my understanding, but canon is kind of thin on evidence either way.

 

[Ometiklan]

What works for me is this:

Inside the Federation, all citizens conduct all business without any currency/money. Any actual goods made, shipped, or replicated are likely tracked by the Federation (in credits based on the energy required to make/ship/replicate them) just for the purposes of making sure every planet/network has enough matter/energy and enough of some goods (or the ability to make those goods).

Outside the Federation, alien races have their own economics with currency (either credits or “cash” – cash being latinum or other unreplicatable matter). When deals occur between Federation citizens and non-citizens, the Federation automatically backs/repays the costs incurred by the citizen – the Federation is basically a credit supplier accepted everywhere.

Riker takes latinum from Quark not because he needs it but because he knows a favor could be exchanged for the debt; Beverly orders cloth at Farpoint and knows the Federation will cover it; Quark tries to extort Kim because he is greedy even though Sisko never charges rent/energy/repair costs; Jake doesn’t use this Federation credit system to get the baseball card because Sisko likely signs off on the bill to Quark (who hosts the auction) and Jake wants to surprise him.

The reason this infinite credit system works is because 1) the Federation is practically post-scarcity and has effectively infinite resources, and 2) Federation citizens are no longer motivated by acquiring stuff, so they are trusted to consume within the almost limitless capacity of the Federation to supply.

To me this works because it 1) matches with the evolved sensibilities of Federation citizens, 2) fits the utopic and beneficent Federation, and 3) answers why there are occasional mentions of credits, yet is clearly stated there is no money in 24th century Federation.

 

[kkt]

That works to some extent... but what if Jane wants a big house with a spectacular view on Mt. Tamalpais with a view of the Pacific and the San Francisco skyline and is willing to trade less other luxury items to get it, while Joe doesn't care about the big house but wants to collect 20th century letterpress books? Neither of those can be replicated in enough quantity for everyone who'd like to have them.

I like to think that the basics are covered for everyone, decent quarters, food, health care... but the credit system is for nonreplicatable items and commerce with non-Federation economies.

 

[jaime]

That works to some extent... but what if Jane wants a big house with a spectacular view on Mt. Tamalpais with a view of the Pacific and the San Francisco skyline and is willing to trade less other luxury items to get it, while Joe doesn't care about the big house but wants to collect 20th century letterpress books? Neither of those can be replicated in enough quantity for everyone who'd like to have them.

I like to think that the basics are covered for everyone, decent quarters, food, health care... but the credit system is for nonreplicatable items and commerce with non-Federation economies.

They would just shrug their shoulders and get on with it. As has been stated, humanity doesn't get bound up in knots over those wants any more (the difference between a replicated thing and an actually the thing is negligible after all. And that view? There's seriously advanced hold technology, so the only value in real estate like that is now pretty much gone.)

 

[Ometiklan]

They would just shrug their shoulders and get on with it.)

I agree. I have seen many posters who insist that there are things that are limited in quantity and can't be replicated (true) - and most often real estate is the example - and that this is an insurmountable hurdle for a money-less economy (not true). In a universe where humanity (and the Federation) has eliminated war, poverty, greed, etc. within itself, is it that unrealistic that people would be willing to not care so much about a view or piece of property?

Some people would work scrubbing dishes and cutting potatoes to learn from a great Chef like Sisko's dad (people work as interns or for low wages in the same situations now).

Some people are willing to work down on deck 15 of Voyager just to get the chance of working in space and eventually being head of astrometrics or working on the bridge.

Some people are willing to live in not-the-penthouse to work for Starfleet in San Francisco.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

the difference between a replicated thing and an actually the thing is negligible after all.

I'm pretty sure that this has not been established in the series. Indeed, it was asserted numerous times that food that was both grown and cooked was different and, according to the tastes of those who ate it, superior to what was replicated.

 

[jaime]

I'm pretty sure that this has not been established in the series. Indeed, it was asserted numerous times that food that was both grown and cooked was different and, according to the tastes of those who ate it, superior to what was replicated.

But that was also supposed to be something of a coke versus Pepsi scenario, or occasionally sommelier level tastebuds, and only applied to a few things (mainly drinks)
It was more of a running joke than an actual fact. Scientifically there is no difference between the things, but maybe the RNG for salt in a given recipe just doesn't appeal in replicated food. Replicated goods were given as presents on voyager, with value added by the scarcity of replicator rations and the sacrifice made by the gift giver.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But that was also supposed to be something of a coke versus Pepsi scenario, or occasionally sommelier level tastebuds, and only applied to a few things (mainly drinks)
It was more of a running joke than an actual fact. Scientifically there is no difference between the things, but maybe the RNG for salt in a given recipe just doesn't appeal in replicated food. Replicated goods were given as presents on voyager, with value added by the scarcity of replicator rations and the sacrifice made by the gift giver.

Well, we're discussing a fictional universe, so the only things that we have to go on are the opinions of the people therein (this notion of the difference between natural and replicated is never contradicted) ... and the existence of an economy in naturally grown, manufactured and cultivated foodstuffs.

 

[Kor]

What happens when someone from a moneyless society deals with someone from a moneyed society:

http://chiefobrienatwork.com/post/118287162166/episode-73-new-brother-read-the-next-episode

Kor