8X04 "Listen" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!

[Skellington]

I think that the gist of the episode was simply that in order to be brave you must first be afraid. The point of having the Young Doctor at the end was probably to drive that home, rather than to aggrandise Clara.

Some thoughts:

• Twelve exists, so presumably the "grave" on Trenzalore never did and neither did Clara's "Impossible Girl" lives, nor the Great Intelligence's attempts to influence the Doctor's history in the first place.
• However, in order for the "Born on Gallifrey, dies on Trenzalore" version of the Doctor's life to have been valid, it should be pretty much impossible for events in the Doctor's post-Trenzalore life to be necessary in order for him to have left Gallifrey. Therefore it seems that he would have left Gallifrey without Clara's intervention.
• If this is Gallifrey, then it seems that the Doctor can, in principle, get back to present-day Gallifrey by just travelling forward in time. (Maybe that was what Twelve was at in The Day Of The Doctor.) Any time lock or banishment to another universe should be circumventable - in part, at least - if he materialises just before it takes effect.
• The TARDIS can find any companion the Doctor will ever have met. Rory and Amy will probably never hear about that, though, so I think the Doctor is safe.
• The Doctor apparently lies in this episode, and probably lies about more than one thing. It looks like either he's regaining an old skill or the supposed 800-year embargo on his telling of fibs wasn't quite that.
• It looks like Gallifreyans build barns to last, even if the War Doctor was really only 800 years old or so.

 

[MacLeod]

Correct me if I'm wrong - because I probably am - but I was under the impression that it was the Time War that was time-locked, not the entire history of Gallifrey.

I would have thought the Time Lords would have somehow taken Gallifrey out of time so to speak so as to prevent interferrence in it's history by other races with Time Travel ability.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Don't care, TBH - it gives me an out from Clara being unnecessarily responsible for the whole fucking history of the show.

That's not implied in the episode, actually. She was just there to calm his fears one night when he was a kid - nothing more.

I would have thought the Time Lords would have somehow taken Gallifrey out of time so to speak so as to prevent interference in its history by other races with Time Travel ability.

But has it ever been stated anywhere?

 

[Stoo]

My favourite episode of the season so far. As creepy as the timeslot allows, some musings on how fear can motivate us, and a heavy dose of ambiguity as to whether or not the hypothetical monsters ever existed.

I also love the concept of the one last empty planet, orbiting the last dying star, at the end of the universe. They could use that as the setting for an episode all by itself.

Have to admit I laughed at the doctor being a jerk to Clara, although he only gets away with it because she's so conventionally pretty and perfect that his insults are obviously ridiculous. Otherwise it would be rather cruel.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm skeptical that the Doctor or any Time Lord can revisit Gallifrey's past. But that doesn't mean the TARDIS can't. Particularly through someone who has already been along the Doctor's timeline once before (and, therefore, had entered Gallifrey). And, obviously, the Doctor had the ability to revisit Gallifrey's past to return to the Moment (or, perhaps, the Moment had the ability to let the Doctor do that).

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Doesn't the time lock only apply to the Time war itself ("The entire war is time locked"-Journey's End)-and the other universe thing is only after the time war? Presumabely one can still go into Gallifrey's past before the war, like Clara did in Name Of The Doctor when she helped the Doctor escape and pick the right TARDIS.

In the classic era, it seems the Doctor's 'present' always aligned with Gallifrey's 'present', but I don't recall any major things about going back into Gallifrey's past apart from the novels/audios. So it's fanon or wishful thinking. Also Rassilon sort of did it by giving the Master the drum noise in the past.



I haven't seen the episode yet but I'm going by earlier stuff and dialogue.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Doesn't the time lock only apply to the Time war itself ("The entire war is time locked"-Journey's End)-and the other universe thing is only after the time war? Presumabely one can still go into Gallifrey's past before the war, like Clara did in Name Of The Doctor when she helped the Doctor escape and pick the right TARDIS.

It wouldn't make much sense as he'd still be running into other Time Lords if that were the case. The Doctor, however, was quite adamant that he was the "last of the Time Lords," and he was more than a little surprised to hear that distress call from the Corsair because of that.

That said, the whole Time Lock thing doesn't make a lick of sense either way.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Clara referred to him as "last of the time lords" in "Robot of Sherwood" although it's clear that's no longer the case. The only timelord in his universe, perhaps, but hardly the last.


Also the Timelords didn't really travel a lot, they just observed or if they did they stayed out of sight usually (Hence the Chameleon circuits). The Doctor, Master, Rani, Monk and other renegades etc. are more the exception than the rule. That's why the Doctor left in the first place.

 

[JoeZhang]

The timelock works like warp-speed - however the plot wants it to work.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The way I see it.

What the time lock does is basically make certain space time coordinates untargetable, similar to the effect the Angels had on Manhattan.
The Doctor needed landing beacons to find his way there.
While that seemed a natural side effect the Time lords probably had a much more controlled and effective version of that to shield Gallifrey from time incursions and ultimaely sealed the whole of the planet's history off.
All attempts to get in or out we saw relied on some sort of insider "beacon" to help:

The Moment, Clara's telepathic link, the Doctor's timeline on Trenzalore, the Master's drums...

The only exception was Dalek Caan and he went mad trying.

 

[MacLeod]

Clara referred to him as "last of the time lords" in "Robot of Sherwood" although it's clear that's no longer the case. The only timelord in his universe, perhaps, but hardly the last.


Also the Timelords didn't really travel a lot, they just observed or if they did they stayed out of sight usually (Hence the Chameleon circuits). The Doctor, Master, Rani, Monk and other renegades etc. are more the exception than the rule. That's why the Doctor left in the first place.

The Doctor may well be the Last Time Lord, but that's not the same thing as the last Gallifreyan

 

[davejames]

The fuck off- Yeah, that bit at the end where Clara is responsible for the Doctor being the Doctor. Again, only further back. It's a insult to all the other creators, to say "no, my girl is the most important character ever, and the entire history of the show is down to her, and not in fact to the main character." Repeatedly. That said, it's actually done pretty well, and if viewed as totally standalone for new viewers it works in the context of the story. If Nu Who was a total reboot (like JJ Abrams's Star Trek) it'd work perfectly fine. But in the context of a long-running show, it smacks of arrogant self-importance. And, between those two extremes, I'm not sure whether to hate it or admire how it can work. Like the Blitzkrieg, it's probably both...

Seriously? Not only is it a major stretch to say that Clara was somehow single-handedly responsible for the Doctor becoming what he is. But the idea that Moffat is somehow motivated only by his ego and not a desire to simply tell good, surprising stories or to find new ways to explore the history and character of the Doctor, just seems a bit ridiculous to me. I mean as the showrunner and head writer, that's the kind of thing he should be doing. And given that the lead character is a time traveller, it would seem strange to me not to occasionally delve into the character's own history the way RTD or Moffat have, or to find new ways of looking at moments from his past.

And hell, nothing he's done so far has come even close to throwing the kind of monkey wrench into the show that the "half-human" thing in the TV movie did 20 years ago.

That's not implied in the episode, actually. She was just there to calm his fears one night when he was a kid - nothing more.

Agreed. The fact she might have been responsible for putting a fear of the dark in him as a kid doesn't mean everything else he did after that is a direct result of her. The Doctor is way too complicated a character for him to ever be motivated by just one single moment like that.

There's likely all kinds of strange things that motivated him to become what he is.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The irrelevant, but thoughts I had anyway- half expected to see Vashta Nerada or Silents.

Yeah, I was thinking they were probably as "perfect" as a blowfish. Maybe the Doctor doesn't remember the Silents though.

Clara's fingers were plugged into the fleshlights - er, I mean TARDIS's telepathic circuits, right? What if the TARDIS went not to ancient Gallifrey, but the Doctor's mind/subconscious memory?

Interesting idea.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Doesn't the time lock only apply to the Time war itself ("The entire war is time locked"-Journey's End)-and the other universe thing is only after the time war? Presumabely one can still go into Gallifrey's past before the war, like Clara did in Name Of The Doctor when she helped the Doctor escape and pick the right TARDIS.

That doesn't make sense to me. If it were so, the Doctor could always visit Gallifrey just to experience his home.

Also, I'm skeptical of the idea that Time Lords have the ability to enter Gallifrey's past. If they did, the Master could just go back in time to a time when they were more vulnerable and he could achieve his plans that way. Same with the Daleks since they have time travel too.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I mean hell, nothing he's done so far has come even close to throwing the kind of monkey wrench into the show that the "half-human" thing in the TV movie did 20 years ago.

Yeah, that was ridiculous. As Vastra would tell you, the Doctor is quarter Time Lord, quarter human, quarter monkey, quarter wrench.

 

[Tom]

Again WHY does everyone here assume the barn is on Gallifrey?? Where is the proof?? We know it is the same barn from DOTD, but there is no evidence that was Gallifrey, the sky looks different and there were no signs the planet was under siege. The children could have been taken for assessment to another planet.

Surprised the adults who came into the barn did not notice the Tardis just sitting there! The perception filter must be working really good!

 

[JRoss]

I appreciated the tone and energy of this episode. It felt like a lot more story than just 40-odd minutes. There was nothing chasing around, no grand epiphany.

The story feels like it was written with Eleven and Amy in mind. It benefits from Capaldi's and Coleman's superior acting ability, though.

At the end, I knew who the boy under the covers was. I did not, though, realized exactly where they were until the reveal through stock footage. Quite clever.

We still don't know who was under the blanket, and I hope we never find out. Just like that thing from Midnight. Any reveal would be less than the mystery in the audience' collective imagination.

 

[Worf2DS9]

I was expecting a lot more from this episode based on the pre-buzz, but overall it was kind of a let-down. There were some good bits, like the creepy factor and Capaldi's performance. Clara's line "Is that what I look like from the back" was amusing and reminded me of Hermione's "Is that what my hair looks like from the back" in Prisoner of Azkaban.

But there were a lot of annoyances in the episode for me, and sadly most of them have to do with Clara. I don't like her snippy, superior attitude lately towards the Doctor, from slapping him hard in the face in the Dalek episode (this is the guy who's taking you on adventures through time and space, and you do that??), and she tells him to shut up a lot too, which is rude. And when the Doctor orders her back inside the TARDIS for her own safety, she calls him an idiot! I don't understand why she decided not to tell the Doctor about Danny Pink -- and speaking of Danny, I don't like the side-trips to this tedious relationship. Maybe that puts me in the boat that doesn't like the aspect of dropping off of Clara so she can live her life all the time. Remember when the Doctor and his companion travelled the galaxy and saved planets and stuff all the time? Yeah, that was fun.

Also, I didn't like the opening monologue with the Doctor working out his theory. Half the time I was expecting him to break the fourth wall and start talking directly to the camera. It just felt weird to me.

So overall, I think this episode was my least favourite so far. And I'm not happy with Clara's "growth" as a character -- she seems to becoming less likeable, which is a sharp contrast to the enjoyable character she was in 7b.

 

[JRoss]

I was fine with the tie-in. And how does it contradict anything about regeneration?

The Eleventh Doctor told Amy and Rory that Timelords and their ability to regenerate came about because of their exposure to the time vortex when they were wondering how Mel had developed that ability. As far as I remember he did say Timelord and Mel certainly didn't go to the Academy so this separation between Gallifreyans and Timelords as suggested in this episode is a contradiction.

Then the non-Time Lord candidates aren't given that exposure?

 

[RoJoHen]

I'm skeptical that the Doctor or any Time Lord can revisit Gallifrey's past. But that doesn't mean the TARDIS can't. Particularly through someone who has already been along the Doctor's timeline once before (and, therefore, had entered Gallifrey). And, obviously, the Doctor had the ability to revisit Gallifrey's past to return to the Moment (or, perhaps, the Moment had the ability to let the Doctor do that).

And if it's the same barn as the one we saw in "The Day of the Doctor," let's remember that Clara has already been there too, so it's just as much a part of her timeline as it is the Doctor's.

She's the Impossible Girl, after all. I'm fine with her being able to fly the TARDIS there. I also like the idea that The Moment allowed her to do it, seeing as it was connected to those events as well.