8472: What Went Wrong?

[Anwar]

I personally wished that they had actually let Species 8472 destroy the Borg completely, and have them become the Delta Quadrant's big bad.

Given how PO'ed the audience was that the Borg weren't written as being completely invincible, I doubt they'd have accepted that. That the Borg could lose to ANYONE was heresy enough, but being wiped out would've just cranked up the hate to another level

It would've been interesting to see VOY have to fight against an enemy they couldn't negotiate with, or didn't have a thing for Seven.

They'd be dead in a millisecond. That nano-weapon they'd made wouldn't stop the 8472 if they came in force.

They had to be dispensed of.

 

[Guy Gardener]

8472 was only interested in fighting a war with zero casualties, which is no war at all, but an extermination, like when God murdered everyone except Noah. I remember listening to an "expert" when this Iraq thing began who said that Coalition forces needed to be attacking with at least a 10:1 ratio to assure tolerable losses once they're out the other side of any engagement.

Meanwhile I recall in Blackadder how the Boer War was reflected as English Chainguns mowing down natives armed with only sharpened fruit.

"if you can't stand a little bloody nose then you have no right to be out here in the first place."

8472 were pussies. No stomach.

But I suppose we're the same killing ants or flies with spray. What would happen to our tactics, if a fly did get pissed off and made a lucky shot taking out a person?

 

[Blueicus]

Well, we're pretty scared of black widow spiders even though we can crush them pretty easily.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm more afraid they'll crawl down my throat while I am sleeping and lay eggs in there.

 

[Anwar]

You're thinking of earwigs, and your head.

 

[exodus]

I thought it was bubble gum and spider eggs?

 

[DarKush]

I personally wished that they had actually let Species 8472 destroy the Borg completely, and have them become the Delta Quadrant's big bad.

Given how PO'ed the audience was that the Borg weren't written as being completely invincible, I doubt they'd have accepted that. That the Borg could lose to ANYONE was heresy enough, but being wiped out would've just cranked up the hate to another level

It would've been interesting to see VOY have to fight against an enemy they couldn't negotiate with, or didn't have a thing for Seven.

They'd be dead in a millisecond. That nano-weapon they'd made wouldn't stop the 8472 if they came in force.

They had to be dispensed of.

On your first point I disagree in the sense that I don't think the audience was PO'd whenever the Borg lost, just in how they lost. Of course the Borg were expected to fail for the most part being the villains and all, but how they were defeated should be commensurate with the threat they posed, and I think VOY especially began to defang them. Also, I don't think there was as much love for the Borg on VOY as there was on TNG. They got a lot of overexposure on VOY and by the time they showed up on ENT, there was some fan grumbling. Also, some of the novel readers were less than enthused about the massive role the Borg played in the TNG Relaunch/Destiny trilogy. So, there wasn't universal acceptance for the Borg.

I agree on your second point.

 

[Anwar]

Well, I disagree on overexposure during VOY's run itself. The Dominion made more appearances in DS9 and they weren't "overexposed".

Then again, the key difference was that the Dominion was DS9's own creation so people were more along the lines of "Well, they MADE the Dominion so they can do whatever they want". With the Borg, they were created in another series so there was less tolerance for what the writers on VOY could do with them.

 

[Withers]

On your first point I disagree in the sense that I don't think the audience was PO'd whenever the Borg lost, just in how they lost.

This, Anwar, is the idea. They could have shown the Borg a million times if they had something other than lol-y ways to defeat them. I knew and full out expected the Borg to lose when they were shown (just like I expected every villain to ultimately fail). I wasn't mad they didn't beat Voyager. I was mad because of how Voyager managed to beat them (time and time again.) If they couldn't find a way around having the Borg being defeated in a silly way then they should have stopped using them.

Then again, the key difference was that the Dominion was DS9's own creation so people were more along the lines of "Well, they MADE the Dominion so they can do whatever they want". With the Borg, they were created in another series so there was less tolerance for what the writers on VOY could do with them.

This is a non sequitur. The Dominion didn't just show up from time to time only to be thoroughly trashed after they tried some ridiculous stunt that was doomed to failure from the onset. I know, I know, I know- Voyager didn't have any fleets for the Borg to tear apart. Well, a.) they didn't need them since the Borg were already established as super powerful but even if they did, b.) Voyager (the show) could have made use of other Delta Quadrant powers the way DS9 used the Romulan/Cardassian fleet and didn't.

There are all sorts of things that make the Dominion acceptable and the Voyager Borg...less than that, and it has nothing to do with ownership of an idea by the writers of any given show or the loyalty of fans to the originators of certain villains (wow, that sounded crazy just typing it out.) It boils down to your least favorite word; execution.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Not really, the audience would have been MUCH more accepting of the enemy getting trashed repeatedly if it were an original VOY race and not one from another show.

And yes, they DID have DQ races getting destroyed or assimilated by the Borg in VOY to keep up their menace, and it STILL didn't work.

Also, you DO have to show them doing that stuff to MAINTAIN their menace. They couldn't just show up and have the cast be afraid of them for what they did in the past, they have to be shown continuously doing stuff to keep up that aura of menace.

This is the problem with an enemy prior established as all but invincible. It's near-impossible to KEEP them as invincible if you want to use them more than 2 or so times.

The Dominion was shown to be tough, but very much NOT invincible. That's another key difference.

 

[Withers]

Not really, the audience would have been MUCH more accepting of the enemy getting trashed repeatedly if it were an original VOY race and not one from another show.

What evidence is there of this? If they invented an equally insurmountable bad guy and had Voyager trash them what makes you think it would have worked to any greater degree of fanfare? If anything the evidence suggests equally the opposite; 8472 is exactly what you're talking about and as many people disliked it as liked it.

And yes, they DID have DQ races getting destroyed or assimilated by the Borg in VOY to keep up their menace, and it STILL didn't work.

Was there any scene that rivaled or looked like the one I was talking about where the Cardassians and Romulans get sent their packing orders by the Dominion? No. Could there easily have been? Yes. So to establish the Borg menace, or reiterate it as you say is essential (which I don't agree with but for the sake of the conversation I'll run with) wouldn't the destruction of a race, shown in detail that Voyager later finds evidence of, be the perfect way to do that?

The Dominion was shown to be tough, but very much NOT invincible. That's another key difference.

Actually, they created the destruction of the Odyssey scene specifically to get the idea across that the Dominion were tougher than anything seen on TNG, with perhaps the exception being the Borg. The Borg were way more beatable based on what had been done in the past than the Dominion were when the first showed up.

It's near-impossible to keep them invincible but not completely impossible as per your statement. Of course the Borg have to be beaten... but they don't have to get bitch slapped in such a fashion that they seem harmless only to show up later. Being beaten doesn't necessarily take all the wind out of ones sails. Just beating them a few times isn't the problem. They could have remained scary after that were it not for the way in which they were beaten (ways which seemingly became sillier each time.) Then you add to the fact that the Doctor basically cured assimilation and the Captain decided it was a good idea to hunt some Borg down for scrap. That has nothing to do with who wins or loses just that by virtue of what was presented the Borg lost some of their "BOOYA" power (I don't know what that means... its just what came out.)

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

If VOY were shown repeatedly defeating, say, Krenim warships or Vidiian warships, no one would have a problem with this since they were VOY originals and not TNG Transplants. Since VOY made them, they can do whatever they want with them and since they were established as NOT being invincible it also works out better. The Borg were from another show AND were regarded as invincible, two strikes against them being in VOY.

The Borg were mentioned in "Hope and Fear" having destroyed some race, and the Borg assimilating another species was shown in "Dark Frontier". Neither did anything to impress the audience.

In the case of the Borg, being beaten DOES completely take away the wind in their sails. That's why "Scorpion" was the beginning of their decay. The instant the Borg were shown as NOT being invincible in straight combat (without a plot device to weaken them) was the instant their menace was done away with. It's also the reason 8472 weren't that beloved an enemy either: they were shown as capable of fighting the Borg and winning.

The Dominion, they were never portrayed as invincible on the level of one Dominion ship annihilating a large Fed fleet. A bunch of them took out a Galaxy class, big whoop. As it went on they became easily destroyable themselves, but since they were never portrayed as Borg invincible nobody cared.

Hunting the borg for parts, well that was more for dramatic necessity than anything else: If the plot had been about VOY hunting a Vidiian ship or a Hirogen ship for parts no one would've watched it (no matter HOW well written it was). Throw in the Borg, instant viewers. TNG and DS9 weren't in such a desperate situation since they were syndicated.

Now, if the audience had just shut up and accepted ANY of VOY's original races instead of hating each one by their premiere episode, things would've been different.

 

[Withers]

If VOY were shown repeatedly defeating, say, Krenim warships or Vidiian warships, no one would have a problem with this since they were VOY originals and not TNG Transplants.

If they showed Voyager repeatedly defeating anything in the way Voyager repeated defeated the Borg people would have a problem with it and it has nothing to do with where whatever hypothetical villain the orchestra is playing off to the tune of LOL.

The Borg were mentioned in "Hope and Fear" having destroyed some race, and the Borg assimilating another species was shown in "Dark Frontier". Neither did anything to impress the audience.

Again, did they ever show a scene like the Cardassians and Romulans getting their asses kicked by the Dominion in regard to Voyager and hypothetical Delta Quadrant citizens? No. Could they have done so? Yes. Your examples are very weak by comparison as neither of those examples involve species that could mount an effective defense against the Borg in a way that was (or could have been) visually pleasing.

In the case of the Borg, being beaten DOES completely take away the wind in their sails. That's why "Scorpion" was the beginning of their decay. The instant the Borg were shown as NOT being invincible in straight combat (without a plot device to weaken them) was the instant their menace was done away with. It's also the reason 8472 weren't that beloved an enemy either: they were shown as capable of fighting the Borg and winning.

You're still missing the idea; it isn't that. It is how. That sentence, on its own, is incomplete but if you read it a few times it might sink in.

Now, if the audience had just shut up and accepted ANY of VOY's original races instead of hating each one by their premiere episode, things would've been different.

You want audiences to accept things they don't like? While doable we're not talking about sympathetic Nazi's- we're talking about some poorly executed villains that stopped making sense (in regard to their presence and their motives). That's not to mention that plenty of people don't see much wrong with a lot of the Voyager villains (at least not to the extent they seem them as detractions.)

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Nah, having them go robbing Krenim ships or escaping from Krenim attacks wouldn't have gone over badly with the audience. Mainly because Non-Borg enemies aren't invincible so it's an easier idea for them to wrap their brains around to begin with. The thought of the Borg being anything BUT utterly invincible is beyond their comprehension.

Even if they DID use DQ races in that way, it still wouldn't have been as effective because they wouldn't resonate with the audience the way seeing two established races like the Cardassians and Romulans being trashed would. And seeing how everyone hated every single last one of VOY's original aliens there was nothing they could do to GET the audience to care one way or another.

Another one of VOY's no-win scenarios the show was plagued with.

You've got it backwards, how doesn't matter, that does. The simple THOUGHT of the Borg losing in a straight up fight that doesn't involve a plot device is heresy to the audience. It doesn't matter if they did some massive battle of a hundred alien ships battling against a Borg Cube, the audience still wouldn't like it.

I want the audience to shut up and give the writers time to make them like anything the show gave them instead of hating every idea the show threw at them 5 minutes into each episode. If TNG or TOS had the level of inherent hatred towards anything they did that VOY did, Trek wouldn't exist. Those shows however were given the necessary time to develop their ideas and aliens, time VOY was NEVER given.

Practically everything they did was a no-win scenario. It had nothing to do with the execution, it had to do with the fact that the show existed in the first place.

 

[Withers]

I dunno buddy... this whole "Everybody Hates Voyager" bit just doesn't really meld with me. I don't think there was any more inherent hatred of this show than there was for any of the other series (certainly not TNG upon it's premier.) DS9 and Enterprise are debatable but each of those shows met with backlash upon their release too.

I don't there's a reasonable...rationale for Voyager's lack of really cool, original aliens since DS9 and Enterprise managed to have them (less so with Enterprise obviously) save for that the writing just wasn't there. They didn't create very cool bad guys (but when they did have a kind of neat premise for one they misused it.) Not always, of course, but a lot of the time.

Anyway, I'm still waiting and I've come to terms with the idea that resolution to certain issues just isn't coming. At this point I'm like the guy in New York still waiting for Titanic to show up.

I'm going to throw this out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up (nothing personal is meant by that, it's just a colloquialism); if any series is as crucified as you claim Voyager is by the fandom I would posit that it's Enterprise. It's being debated (still) whether that show is even canon or not. There are plenty but plenty of people who absolutely love Voyager, think Janeway is the best Captain, and can get over all the stuff that's been referred to as a 'flaw' without much effort. There are plenty of them. There aren't so many who are emphatic about Enterprise.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

VOY was always on the move, wasn't the strongest ship to begin with, and couldn't afford to lose any of their crew. That means the aliens won't have much time to appear before VOY moves on, they can't be that tough that VOY can't fight back, and they can't do much damage to the ship.

Hell, even with Farscape and NuBSG they took 2-3 seasons to develop their bad guys. VOY didn't have that luxury since theirs couldn't show up very much in the first place unlike those shows where it made perfect sense for them to continually show up.

ENT gets more appreciation these days because it was canceled and people are understanding just how difficult it would be to do a Trek prequel in the first place. VOY got its full run, and people still refuse to do the research to understand the many restrictions IT had put upon it. They aren't as sympathetic to a series that got its run completed.

I admit, they don't hate it as MUCH as they did a few years ago since its closest competitor (NuBSG) sputtered out so badly at the end and only ran half as long as VOY did.

 

[Withers]

VOY was always on the move, wasn't the strongest ship to begin with, and couldn't afford to love of their crew. That means the aliens won't have much time to appear before VOY moves on, they can't be that tough that VOY can't fight back, and they can't do much damage to the ship.

Hell, even with Farscape and NuBSG they took 2-3 seasons to develop their bad guys. VOY didn't have that luxury since theirs couldn't show up very much in the first place unlike those shows where it made perfect sense for them to continually show up.

Except that they did show up all the time and where they shouldn't have been, namely and most obviously, the Borg. You can explain that with transwarp conduits and that they were trying to take over the Galaxy, sure, but they stated (themselves) that they were clear of Borg Space. And that's just the big one. There are plenty of other examples of Voyager running into things it shouldn't have.

You can't excuse Voyager based on something it couldn't do that it did. That's like a waitress calling out because she claims shes too sick to move only to later show up at that restaurant for cocktails.

ENT gets more appreciation these days because it was canceled and people are understanding just how difficult it would be to do a Trek prequel in the first place. VOY got its full run, and people still refuse to do the research to understand the many restrictions IT had put upon it. They aren't as sympathetic to a series that got its run completed.

I admit, they don't hate it as MUCH as they did a few years ago since its closest competitor (NuBSG) sputtered out so badly at the end and only ran half as long as VOY did.

I... just don't know about that. That seems dubious and highly speculative to me but then I'm not as vested in Voyager as you are so I defer to your judgment I guess.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

The Borg showing up a lot isn't a problem, after all they have tech to send them all over the galaxy. Besides, it's not like they can really develop the Borg. Not without offending the audience.

No, if VOY had been stationary then there wouldn't have been a problem with seeing the same aliens enough times to properly develop them. Or if one group of them had been actively chasing them all across their voyage (like the Cyclon in Galactica, or Peacekeepers in Farscape). However, neither happened so there wasn't enough reasoning to develop them in the first place. The sporadic appearances some aliens made don't count. And nothing they did could get the audience to like the Kazon.

Me, I'd have given the audience a well-deserved middle finger and used them a lot more than they were used in the first 2 seasons. And probably used them in the third as well.

When NuBSG was moderately good VOY was Trek's whipping boy. ENT stopped getting that abuse after the 2nd season ended.

 

[Withers]

The sporadic appearances some aliens made don't count. And nothing they did could get the audience to like the Kazon.

So, in order to make your argument make sense we have to disregard the sporadic appearances of "some aliens" when they should have been long behind Voyager, we have to allow for anything the Kazon did since regardless the audience would have hated it, and we have to allow for the fact that Kes' gift wasn't really getting them clear of Borg Space even though that's what they said happened? That's a lot of allowances in order to make your argument function.

When NuBSG was moderately good VOY was Trek's whipping boy. ENT stopped getting that abuse after the 2nd season ended.

If this forum is any indication I honestly get the impression that people just don't really care one way or another about Enterprise at this point. It seems like 4 seasons just wasn't enough to breed "hardcore" Enterprise fans en mass. Of course that's just my impression so I could very well be wrong. Still, if Enterprise stopped getting bashed after season two, there's a good reason for it- it stopped sucking so hard after season two. If a lot of people behaved like you do I'd be more inclined to buy this "Voyager Victim" stuff but as is you're the only poster who is so...emphatic about it.

-Withers-​

 

[tvih]

Hrm. Well, it's true that the main things wrong with the Borg are wrong because they're different to what they were in TNG - weaker. And even though Species 8472 is VOY's creation, it doesn't have the luxury of being treated like "any other race" since we initially get to know them as something that can basically use Borg cubes as dice. Therefore we relate to them through the Borg. And as such, they're no longer free to be used however writers want, at least not in a plausible manner.

Also I'll admit that it's odd how some races appear where they shouldn't. The Borg I can understand, after all they've been as far as to the Alpha Quadrant a few times already that we've seen on-screen, but for example the Thalaxians living in the asteroid are a weird thing, since it's never explained how the hell they got there, 45 000 light years from their home planet. The Kazon also stay "on-screen" for much longer than they should, given they shouldn't have a vast amount of space under their control. The Hirogen are so-so, since they're nomadic and you can't really tell how far they've spread.

But coming back to the Borg, and like I already said in my earlier post, it really, really doesn't make sense that they don't attack the Alpha Quadrant in force, given how they're portrayed in Voyager. I mean, they literally can go to Earth orbit in minutes via their transwarp conduits as established in Endgame. And even at regular transwarp - which seems to be a different form of travel from the conduits - it wouldn't take them many months to reach Earth. They seem obsessed about assimilating Earth, yet seem to think they can't do it without learning more about them. Bloody hell, they only tried with a single cube (twice) for crying out loud. Since it's established that they have thousands of ships, it really doesn't make sense. And this is easily my number one complaint about the Borg in Voyager. Most of the other flaws I can more easily look over. But it's hard to take them seriously when they clearly should have the means to assimilate Earth, and want to do it, but simply don't for some mysterious reason.