8472: What Went Wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Withers, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    They didn't really do that though did they? Somewhere out there is the stored up energy the writers held back... I guess they just forgot to use it?


    -Withers-​
     
  2. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain


    :D Awesome...I hadn't noticed.

    8472 fell victim to the dreaded Villain Decay...when the writers think,
    "Hey, let's make something so monstrous that it can't be defeated."
    Then a week later, they think "Uh oh. The main characters are screwed!" The only two choices are to kill the main characters or make the villains weaker. Although, the first option wouldn't have bothered me that much...:)
     
  3. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    Nah, more like let up at small bursts such as "Living Witness" and "Year of Hell" while UPN sucked the rest of it out of them.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Does the word "Tantric" mean nothing to you people?

    Besides if the only episodes worth watching are season primers, sweeps and season finales, then a smarter version of me would only watch those episodes.
     
  5. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    Yeah... I mean, that can't be a good policy. That'd take the total number of watchable Trek from 726 episodes to more like... 30-35 tops.


    -Withers-​
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    For UPN Trek, those were the ones they pretty much ORDERED the writers to pour more into. Of course if they laid off then there'd be more BETWEEN all the premieres and finales, and sometimes there were when the writers were temporarily not f***ed up by network interference.
     
  7. tvih

    tvih Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Species 8472... well, yeah. Things went kinda wrong with it indeed. They're way too powerful, which is one reason they would've been hard to have around later on. Of course, it's a bit silly that they were described as a relentless killing machines purging the galaxy, and then toned down to a misunderstood race afraid of humans... but I suppose they needed some way to cut that storyline in their minds. I just wish they'd have put more foresight into that. Or just simply leave that episode out entirely. They retreated, and as such it wasn't necessary for Voyager to run into them again. It would've been just as viable an ending as the one they had. And both ways would've worked better if they hadn't been portrayed 8472 as too powerful (and as relentless killers) to begin with.

    Not to sidetrack too much, but the Borg have a bit of a similar problem, really, what comes to being powerful. It's not as evident in the other series, but since Voyager focuses more on the Borg, it becomes very much so. For example the Queen says to Seven they need to understand the nature of Human resistance better in order to successfully assimilate them. This make no sense. If they wanted to, they could assimilate them. I wouldn't call a single cube or even a handful of cubes an attempt to assimilate something as big as the Federation.

    Yet, let's keep in mind that a single cube destroyed a fleet of 30 ships in Wolf-359, and in ST:FC a fleet managed to destroy a cube, but not easily. So, the Borg have what, thousands of cubes? Send a few hundred all over the Federation at once, and the Federation is no more. For that matter, why would the Borg even care about the humans, when there's still plenty to assimilate in the Delta Quadrant (and for that matter, they've already assimilated the Federation's technologies etc)? And why are they sitting on their hands to begin with, they could've probably assimilated the damn galaxy already if they weren't slacking, especially as Transwarp and other assimilated technologies - Quantum Slipstream etc - allows them to get anywhere quite fast. But here we indeed run into the same issue as with 8472 - they're a bit too powerful to be used "logically".

    Now, I've read that there's a novel taking place in 2381 where the Borg invade Alpha Quadrant in full force, but it's not canon, as with other novels. And based on the short description at Memory Beta it, in turn, downplays the Borg strength again. Because if the Borg really attacked with as many ships as is listed (7461), even if all of them weren't cubes they would easily destroy any and all resistance with a coordinated pronged strike aiming at important targets across the Alpha quadrant simultaneously before anyone could counter them. Resistance would indeed be futile.

    Unless of course you have at least a few hundred Endgame-Voyagers with transphasic torpedoes and crazy batmobile hull armor to which the Borg couldn't adapt... doh :rolleyes: But even then they couldn't possibly save most of the planets before it'd be too late for them.
     
  8. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, is that also your opinion when it comes to Odo and the effect for shape-shifting because as we all know, cost was the same reason that effect done was done very sparingly.
     
  9. Kai Winn

    Kai Winn Captain Captain

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    the same happened to me when i watched b5:thirdspace. a powerful race from an alien realm which they don't share with other beings, bound to destroy all life in our universe. where did the idea come from?
     
  10. tvih

    tvih Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Well, I'm sure the same idea/setting has popped up even earlier somewhere else in some form. The thing is nowadays that truly unique ideas are hard to come by. Even demons invading from hell is just another variation of this "powerful enemy from another dimension" theme. And there's certainly been plenty of that in works of fiction in the past.

    A good demonstration of the difficulty of coming up with original things is when I tried of thinking plot developments and also shaping the world for a fantasy story of my own while I was in high school. I'd then think of something supposedly cool that I hadn't seen anywhere before. Lo and behold, I go to the library to pick up the next fantasy book to read, and it has exactly or almost exactly the thing in it that I came up with (even if it wasn't anything earthshatteringly brilliant *cough*). And this didn't happen just once or twice, either. Sadly it happened often enough to put me off from doing any fiction since, though it still is one of my goals in life to write a book one day (probably going to be scifi rather than fantasy though... or I'll just do one of both, heh).

    But yes, people come up with the same ideas independently, and also there's always bound to be some conscious... "borrowing"... of ideas as well. It's only natural and happens all the time, everywhere. No harm in it unless everything becomes 1:1 carbon copies of each other.

    Oh and by the way, the "funny" thing about Species 8472 is that while the race was reminiscent of the Shadows, the ships were somewhat Vorlon-like.
     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    The whole idea is pretty much just Cthulu as a space opera villain.
     
  12. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Am I missing something because this is an absolute statement that really puzzles me. I thought most fans loved Species 8472, at least until In the Flesh. I know I did, and even in In the Flesh it was a nice way to give that storyline a bit of closure. I wish it was done better, and even had them brought back in Season 7, but to say that Species 8472 was executed with stern disapproval from the fans is wrong. Oh, and Prey is one of my favorite episodes, again dealing with 8472.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    For a species that were in three episodes they were massively popular but not representatively popular. Surely greater popularity demands a greater number of episodes? Diminishing returns aside, if not for the Borg, being given the Borg props and costumes from the movie, it would have been 8472 who would have been given all the choice episodes and placement which the Borg had.

    Voyager had no faith in itself to do better than the people before them.

    HAH!

    The Borg were like Matthew McKConughuey in dazed and confused.
     
  14. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    If the show had been made in the 2000s, CGI would've been more advanced and cheaper so they could use the 8472 designs more. Back in the 90s, Paramount wouldn't shell out the cash for them.

    Or they could've used crap CGI effects like Babylon 5 did (of course, they didn't have the money for anything better...). But I doubt that Trek fans, having been spoiled on the higher-budgeted models and makeup before, would've tolerate that.
     
  15. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    I must be missing something then. Every time I've ever brought it up with other people it has been to the sound of groans followed by eye rolling. But that could just be personal experience. My bad if it was overstated.


    -Withers-​
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We might have been ignorant savages back them worshipping Toy Story as some sort of CGI Zenith, but he Babylon 5 stuff still gives me a boner, and I coudn't see much difference between Star Furies wasting Centauri Battle Cruisers and anything Voyager did, except you now "balls". In B5 they showed huge space battles with dozens of ships firing hundreds of weapons flitting in all directions, mean while Voyager just seems to sit there fire once and then the bad guys surrender because their bridge is on fire. Considering what DS9 was up to at the same time, they were letting the side down.

    Saw the Jim Carey CGI A Christmas Carol last night. Not long till they can bring back Sinatra convincingly.

    I refer tot he years 2001 through 2009 affectionately as the Naughties.
     
  17. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    You saw that "Singing in the Rain" commercial with the CGI Gene Kelly, right?
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I live in New Zealand. That ad hasn't made it's way down here yet.

    However, I don't think that i have ever seen an ad for a Voltswagon on our local tv.

    Though it's fitting they'd do this with Gene since he started this.

    It was the third Jerry who he danced with in that Sailor routine.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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  20. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I loved Species 8472 up to "In the Flesh." I agree with the posters who felt that Species 8472 was made out to be so powerful that it would be hard to make them recurring villains on the show, not to mention the cost of the FX for them at that time prohibited that too from what I've read. Species 8472 was just too powerful and you couldn't bring them on too many times without diluting them as a threat (ie the Borg). However, the VOY writers wound up neutering Species 8472 anyway.

    I also feel that TPTB actually did so well in creating a truly alien, potential iconic threat for Trek that they didn't know what to do with it. "In the Flesh" was an attempt, a bad one IMO, to find a way to make Species 8472 more relatable, to bring them down to Earth. But their very alienness was one of the things that made them so cool and when you strip that away and turn them into Boothby, it really made them a run of the mill alien of the week.

    I personally wished that they had actually let Species 8472 destroy the Borg completely, and have them become the Delta Quadrant's big bad. It would've been interesting to see VOY have to fight against an enemy they couldn't negotiate with, or didn't have a thing for Seven.