23rd century Runabouts?

[Wingsley]

Was there anything in any TREK series that declared "Runabout" type vehicles were only used by Starfleet in the 24th century? In other words, could it have been possible to see some kind of early Runabout type ship in the TOS era?

Fro that matter, was it ever made clear how fast shuttlecraft and other small ships could go in deep space? Did they have a top speed of, say, Warp 5?

 

[LiChiu]

I think the only thing that came close to a runabout in Kirk's era was the vulcan warp sled seen in the first movie. I don't know what the top speed was.

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, the Surak type modular shuttle was intended to be the movie-era version of the original shuttles. It never quite worked out that way, but that was the original idea.

 

[Wingsley]

Does "The Menagerie, Part 1" suggest that TOS-era shuttlecraft are capable of Warp speed? Otherwise, how could Starbase 11's shuttle have chased the Enterprise after it had already warped out of orbit for Talos IV?

 

[Lieut. Arex]

I'd say the Copernicus from "The Slaver Weapon" is good candidate as the most direct ancestor. Larger than a Class F, definitely warp driven and capable of long-range operations independent of the Enterprise.

Unicron said:
Yeah, the Surak type modular shuttle was intended to be the movie-era version of the original shuttles. It never quite worked out that way, but that was the original idea.

The Surak passenger section was nearly as long as a Danube class runabout. There's a smaller version of the shuttle that was to be the standard ship-borne craft. Though I doubt they'd have been lavender like the Surak. It's a crime more wasn't seen of that design.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Lieut. Arex said:
It's a crime more wasn't seen of that design.

Amen to that, to say nothing of its many alternative mission-specific configurations:

Mr. Probert, if one may ask, do you happen to recall whether this highly modular "snap-together" design paradigm for the Starfleet shuttlecraft was on your mind during the pre-production phase of ST:TMP or did it only come up later when you were asked to consult on a model kit project (which to my knowledge has never been released with these additional parts)?

TGT

 

[LiChiu]

In the book The Art of Star Trek there is a painting of the Enterprise's cargo deck where you can see down to the hangar bay and there are at least two of those shuttles sitting in there, without the warp dive module of course.
I do not think they show up in the movie.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

LiChiu said:
In the book The Art of Star Trek there is a painting of the Enterprise's cargo deck where you can see down to the hangar bay and there are at least two of those shuttles sitting in there, without the warp dive module of course.

Are you referring to Andrew Probert's matte render on this page? Or this one?

I do not think they show up in the movie.

Robert Wise wanted the appearance of the shuttle during the Spock arrival sequence to be a surprise for the audience, hence their absence from the final cargo/hangar deck paintings.

TGT

 

[LiChiu]

The God Thing said:

LiChiu said:
In the book The Art of Star Trek there is a painting of the Enterprise's cargo deck where you can see down to the hangar bay and there are at least two of those shuttles sitting in there, without the warp dive module of course.

Are you referring to Andrew Probert's matte render on this page? Or this one?

I do not think they show up in the movie.

Robert Wise wanted the appearance of the shuttle during the Spock arrival sequence to be a surprise for the audience, hence their absence from the final cargo/hangar deck paintings.

TGT

Yes I believe it was done by Andrew Probert. The one I was referring to is done from this perspective.

That is a screen shot from the movie but in the painting you can see the shuttles.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

^ Everything outside of the actual soundstage floor with the actors is a matte painting executed by either Matthew Yuricich or Rocco Gioffre (and based upon the conceptual design by Andrew Probert). As I noted, ST:TMP director Robert Wise did not want the audience to see the shuttlecraft this early in the film which is why it does not appear here.

TGT

 

[LiChiu]

Sometimes those matte paintings are done so well it is not easy to see where the soundstage ends and the painting begins.
Robert Wise should have left them in there since it would have been a quick glimpse at best or at least added them on the DVD.

 

[Probert]

The God Thing said:
Mr. Probert, if one may ask, do you happen to recall whether this highly modular "snap-together" design paradigm for the Starfleet shuttlecraft was on your mind during the pre-production phase of ST:TMP or did it only come up later when you were asked to consult on a model kit project (which to my knowledge has never been released with these additional parts)?

TGT

When I tried to introduce this new shuttlecraft design to all concerned, I deduced that the long-range version was too large to fit the Enterprise hanger deck. I think it could land in there but that would have to be checked. Anyway, I came up with a smaller version that would fit those spaces and included them in my cargo deck mattes, as you all know. Admittedly, I was disappointed when they all vanished in the final version. While I was developing that compact version (the new Starfleet Shuttle), those additional components came to mind and I sketched them up. I don't recall being contacted by AMT for TMP like I was for TNG, so, I don't remember if I was intending that sketch sheet to go to them or if I added those 'model parts' as a note to myself. Sorry.

Maybe they'll be resurrected as another 'Concept Kit' someday.

Andrew-

 

[C.E. Evans]

Wingsley said:
Was there anything in any TREK series that declared "Runabout" type vehicles were only used by Starfleet in the 24th century?

I always kinda thought that the Jenolen that Scotty was trapped aboard in TNG's "Relics" was a 23rd-Century runabout myself.

 

[Wingsley]

Was there ever a readout (or speculation, for that matter) on how fast these smaller ships could go? The Picaso had to be able to sustain warp velocity in order to chase the Enterprise, even partway from Starbase 11 to Talos IV.

 

[Timo]

I always kinda thought that the Jenolen that Scotty was trapped aboard in TNG's "Relics" was a 23rd-Century runabout myself.

...Despite having exterior detail to establish her as basically equal in size to Kirk's Enterprise?

I'd think the warp engines would already be a telltale. That beastie was hundreds of meters long, with a cavernous aft shuttlebay capable of taking aboard a fleet of runabouts. But admittedly the ship was never seen in a good closeup.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unicron]

I sometimes wonder about scaling perceptions, though. I'm comfortable with the Jenolen's nacelles being the same as those on the Enterprise or Miranda designs, but I see no reason why the same basic design couldn't be used in a smaller ship. Sometimes it seems like fans are under the impression that if you use a saucer or nacelles that have the same physical appearance as those used on the Enterprise or Miranda, those parts must be the same scale. And that is not necessarily true.

 

[Wingsley]

Does anyone know how fast DS9 Runabouts could go?

 

[Probert]

Faster than a speeding bullet.

 

[Data Holmes]

Wingsley said:
Does anyone know how fast DS9 Runabouts could go?

It was supposed to be warp 4, but the real answer was "as fast as the story required".

 

[Timo]

Sometimes it seems like fans are under the impression that if you use a saucer or nacelles that have the same physical appearance as those used on the Enterprise or Miranda, those parts must be the same scale. And that is not necessarily true.

It does create some pretty big problems if one tries to use a Constitution saucer to depict something smaller - the windows become even more nonsensical than before, and most of the saucer becomes way too thin to provide any sort of inhabitable volume.

And it would seem a major engineering challenge to alter the size of a design without altering its shape. There's a good reason why elephants don't look like giant ants.

In case of the Jenol*n, it's rather clear anyway that she's supposed to be big. Rows upon rows of windows, a bridge dome, a big shuttlebay with a control booth above the door, plus the fact that she seems to be at least as big as the E-D when blocking the Dyson Sphere doors...

It was supposed to be warp 4, but the real answer was "as fast as the story required".

In "Dax", it was a plot point that ships capable of warp 5 or above would be viable escape vehicles for the villains, heavily suggesting that runabouts were slightly slower than that. Warp 4.7 was quoted in some background material but never on screen.

In "Jem'Hadar", the panicking Nog and Jake tried to make the runabout go warp eight. Doesn't mean the craft would be capable of that, though.

In some later episodes like "Treachery, Faith and the Great River", runabouts seem to be able to give credible chase to / try to escape from Jem'Hadar bugships that in other contexts are the propulsive match of the warp 9ish Defiant. But this is no definite proof of any speed improvements. Warp 4.7 sounds nice enough to me - 0.7 warp factors higher than the highest known shuttlecraft speed (the one quoted for the unseen Type 9 design in VOY "Resolutions"), and reasonably higher than the speeds usually quoted for civilian shipping.

Timo Saloniemi