23rd century Runabouts?

[C.E. Evans]

Timo said:

I always kinda thought that the Jenolen that Scotty was trapped aboard in TNG's "Relics" was a 23rd-Century runabout myself.

...Despite having exterior detail to establish her as basically equal in size to Kirk's Enterprise?

Yes, because the actual scale of the ship is questionable, IMO. While I do think the Sydney-class is a much larger design than the Danube-class, I disagree that it's equal in size to a Constitution-class. At best, it's about a third of the size to me, making it about right for a personnel transport or a heavy runabout.

I'd think the warp engines would already be a telltale.

But we've seen shuttlecrafts with starship-style warp engines in both the 23rd-Century (Star Trek V) and the 24th-Century, simply scaled down. To me, that's the case here.

That beastie was hundreds of meters long, with a cavernous aft shuttlebay capable of taking aboard a fleet of runabouts. But admittedly the ship was never seen in a good closeup.

And I guess that leads to a difference of opinion about its scale. To me, the ship looked smaller than a Nova-class vessel and was barely more than 100 meters long with about four to six decks...

 

[MarianLH]

The bridge module is also taken from the TMP Enterprise. Scaled from the identical bridge module, the Sydney class isn't quite as long as a refit Constitution, but it's not very much shorter, either.

And since the ship isn't likely to be crewed by pygmies, I can't buy any claim that the bridge is a different scale.


Marian

 

[BolianAuthor]

I'm a bit surprised that nobody has thrown THIS ship out there... the film named the craft as "SD-103", which would imply that it's a Spacedock craft, but it was delivering Kirk and company to the 1701-A from Earth, so I would assume it has a larger occupancy capacity than the smaller little Spacedock shuttles we see zipping to and fro inside the dock, with the little red engines. This ship does look like it could be about the size of a Danube-Class ship, if not as modern.

 

[aridas sofia]

Isn't that the very shuttlecraft that was (somewhat insanely) used as the basis for the Jenolan?

 

[Mysterion]

The God Thing said:

Lieut. Arex said:

Amen to that, to say nothing of its many alternative mission-specific configurations:

If you can find a copy of Jackill's third Starships book, I think it's Vol 3, he really goes to town showing the different modules for that type of shuttle.

Also, Federation frontiers did a guide to shuttles that shows some interesting variations on the basic shuttle design.

 

[Forbin]

I was that Mike Okuda suggested the Sydney class was a runabout, and I'm equally that anyone can still repeat that. It has not only Enterprise nacelles and bridge, but an Enterprise impulse engine, all of which can be used to scale it, and very clear rows of windows on its sides that clearly show it as being a very large ship.

 

[Forbin]

From http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/starfleet_ships2.htm

Annotations
1) This class is often mistakenly classified as runabout, but it is definitely much larger than e.g. a Danube class. The studio model was originally used for an orbital shuttle, but substantially modified with Constitution and Miranda components in a fashion to look like a "real" starship with several decks. There is no way it could be in any way related to a runabout.

 

[Forbin]

Screengrabs showing Constitution class Bridge, Impulse engines, nacelles and window patterns:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=129&pos=36
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=129&pos=419

Photos of the model from:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/sfvarious1.htm

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/jenolan-model-side.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/other/jenolan1.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/sydney-christies.jpg

VERY clear view of the Conny components in that last one.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
That's all very nice and all, but it still boils down to opinion and conjecture, though, so I think the size is still questionable. I don't think you can judge the size of a ship based on its bridge or even bridge dome. Additionally, those windows could be anywhere from one foot wide to six feet wide, IMO. I still think of the Sydney-class as a large runabout, but whatever floats your boat, I guess...

 

[Data Holmes]

C.E. Evans said:
^^^
That's all very nice and all, but it still boils down to opinion and conjecture, though, so I think the size is still questionable. I don't think you can judge the size of a ship based on its bridge or even bridge dome. Additionally, those windows could be anywhere from one foot wide to six feet wide, IMO. I still think of the Sydney-class as a large runabout, but whatever floats your boat, I guess...

The ship is definitely longer than the galaxy class is high, which is clearly shown when you compare these two visuals:

Doors of the sphere in relation to E-D

Doors in relation to sudney class.


That makes it larger than any runabout we've seen.


I'd say that the executive shuttle seen in TUC and Generations is a Film era runabout, not the sydney.

 

[C.E. Evans]

hutt359 said:

C.E. Evans said:
^^^
That's all very nice and all, but it still boils down to opinion and conjecture, though, so I think the size is still questionable. I don't think you can judge the size of a ship based on its bridge or even bridge dome. Additionally, those windows could be anywhere from one foot wide to six feet wide, IMO. I still think of the Sydney-class as a large runabout, but whatever floats your boat, I guess...

The ship is definitely longer than the galaxy class is high, which is clearly shown when you compare these two visuals:

Doors of the sphere in relation to E-D

Doors in relation to sudney class.

Looks like a perspective issue to me. Still, if that what works for you, I have no problem with it. I myself remain unconvinced though, but that's just a difference of opinion there.

That makes it larger than any runabout we've seen.

Oh, there's no question that it's larger than the Danube-class, and I've never said otherwise. I just don't think it's that big myself...

I'd say that the executive shuttle seen in TUC and Generations is a Film era runabout...

Could be. There's nothing saying that there has to be only one class (or size) of runabout in service at any given time...

 

[Griffworks]

C.E. Evans said:
^^^
That's all very nice and all, but it still boils down to opinion and conjecture, though, so I think the size is still questionable. I don't think you can judge the size of a ship based on its bridge or even bridge dome. Additionally, those windows could be anywhere from one foot wide to six feet wide, IMO. I still think of the Sydney-class as a large runabout, but whatever floats your boat, I guess...

No, I think it really boils down to a matter of what was intended. I think it's fairly obvious that the intention was for those details of the bridge, nacelles and impulse deflection crystal to give us a size, as is the additional detail on the studio model. Then there are the hull markings, the windows, which if you put them to-scale w/a Refit appear to be excactly the same size, etc...

For the most part, tho, I'd have to argue that you're pretty much the only one who doesn't want to believe that Jenolen was as big as all the evidence provided shows her to be.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Griffworks said:

C.E. Evans said:
^^^
That's all very nice and all, but it still boils down to opinion and conjecture, though, so I think the size is still questionable. I don't think you can judge the size of a ship based on its bridge or even bridge dome. Additionally, those windows could be anywhere from one foot wide to six feet wide, IMO. I still think of the Sydney-class as a large runabout, but whatever floats your boat, I guess...

No, I think it really boils down to a matter of what was intended.

I don't think you even want to go there. That opens up a whole can of worms about tons of discrepancies about things that were "intended" on screen.

I think it's fairly obvious that the intention was for those details of the bridge, nacelles and impulse deflection crystal to give us a size, as is the additional detail on the studio model. Then there are the hull markings, the windows, which if you put them to-scale w/a Refit appear to be excactly the same size, etc...

For the most part, tho, I'd have to argue that you're pretty much the only one who doesn't want to believe that Jenolen was as big as all the evidence provided shows her to be.

Nah, I think it's a case that you and others have shared and long-held opinions on the subject and I don't. The "evidence" hasn't really changed my mind, and actually has reinforced my opinion, really...

(Shrugs)
But who cares anyway? Y'all see the ship one way, I see it another, so agree to disagree then...

 

[Wingsley]

I was asking about the capabilities of DS9's Runabouts, not conjecture about the size of the Jenolen.

In this article:

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Danube_class

...there is mention of Runabouts achieving Warp 7. Can anyone remember this?

I always assumed Runabouts weren't any good in the TNG era unless they could achieve at least Warp 5, if not Warp 7.

 

[Unicron]

IIRC, the Jenolen model was reused (inverted) for Dulmer and Lucsley's ship in DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations."

 

[Timo]

Yup. Although the first time it served in that role was in "Playing God" on the second season; Dulmer and Lucsly only flew aboard stock footage... That last picture of the model shows the supposed configuration of the model during the filming of "Playing God", with the name changed and the conspicuous NCC-2010 registry replaced by a much smaller NCC-2010-5 or somesuch.

And if one wants to argue that the Jenolan/len/lin was smallish, one might just as well argue that Kirk's Enterprise was larger than Picard's. After all, every indication of scale can be ignored if there's enough will.

(One more tidbit about the intended size of the Jenolen: the onboard graphics showing the size of her warp core. Not solid proof of scale or anything. Just another indication that all the creators of the ship, meaning the modelmaker, the VFX shooting crew, the set designers and the writers, were in agreement about her being a ship rather than a craft.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Timo said:
And if one wants to argue that the Jenolan/len/lin was smallish, one might just as well argue that Kirk's Enterprise was larger than Picard's. After all, every indication of scale can be ignored if there's enough will.

The only problem there is that--unlike the Sydney-class--there has been side-by-side comparisons with other ships. We saw the Enterprise-A paired up with the Excelsior in Star Trek VI, and we've seen other Excelsior-class ships compared with the Enterprise-D.

All the screen grabs that's been posted here--and there's been quite a lot for lil' ole me--are those of a vessel sitting by itself. There are lots of windows and such which indicates it's a ship with multiple decks, but I don't see why it can't be a runabout. To me, a runabout is a small starship used primarily as a personnel transport, and the Jenolen fits that bill. I still disagree with the insistence that it has to be a really big vessel though. I've said before I don't think it's too much bigger than 100 meters, so what's the big deal?

(One more tidbit about the intended size of the Jenolen: the onboard graphics showing the size of her warp core. Not solid proof of scale or anything. Just another indication that all the creators of the ship, meaning the modelmaker, the VFX shooting crew, the set designers and the writers, were in agreement about her being a ship rather than a craft.

As you said, it's not really proof of scale or anything. I don't believe in the one-size-fits-all warp core, so it's easy for me to think of that schematic as something spanning no more than two decks (I suggested in my earlier post the Jenolen likely had four to six decks, in any event). I've already said before that I think it's much larger than a Danube-class, but I still disagree with just how big it is though.

Well, this is the last I'm going to comment on this subject, since it's really going nowhere and nor do I feel the need to have the last word on such a issue. I never said I was stating anything more than a personal opinion, but I appreciate all the screengrabs and everything though...

 

[LiChiu]

Unicron said:
IIRC, the Jenolen model was reused (inverted) for Dulmer and Lucsley's ship in DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations."

It showed up in more than one episode of DS9. There was one where you see it leave the station and it flew under a docked Excelsior. It did not look like a small runabout sized ship as it passed the excelsior.

hutt359 said:

C.E. Evans said:
^^^
That's all very nice and all, but it still boils down to opinion and conjecture, though, so I think the size is still questionable. I don't think you can judge the size of a ship based on its bridge or even bridge dome. Additionally, those windows could be anywhere from one foot wide to six feet wide, IMO. I still think of the Sydney-class as a large runabout, but whatever floats your boat, I guess...

The ship is definitely longer than the galaxy class is high, which is clearly shown when you compare these two visuals:

Doors of the sphere in relation to E-D

Doors in relation to sudney class.


That makes it larger than any runabout we've seen.


I'd say that the executive shuttle seen in TUC and Generations is a Film era runabout, not the sydney.

Those shots there make it obvious that it is a large ship. In the first shot the doors are clearly opened wider. If it was the size of a runabout then the ship could not have held those doors open wide of enough for something the size of a galaxy class ship to pass through. Plus if you sit and watch the episode it is clearly not a case of perspective.

 

[Timo]

Hmm. No offense, but I have trouble seeing merit in your general viewpoint - going by personal definitions for things that already have definitions. In Star Trek, it may not be all that important either way, but as a general principle...

Granted that we don't know exactly what Starfleet means by "runabout", but we do know what it means in today's language. It means a speedboat, not a multi-deck cruise ship. And the DS9 craft does fit the speedboat bill quite nicely, suggesting that the writers did know what they were doing when introducing the term to the Trek universe.

FWIW, in the Trek universe, the Sydney class was always simply called a "transport ship" (which is the standard military term for freighters and liners today). That doesn't exclude the possibility that some transport ships would also be called runabouts in the Trek universe. It just doesn't make immediate sense as to why. It's not as if we would ever have seen any personnel transport larger than the Sydney class...

As for comparison pics, each and every one of them could always be dismissed as a "perspective issue". The ones featuring the Jenolan and the E-D next to a common object seem better than most, really: unlike the shot with Kirk's and Sulu's ships side by side in ST6:TUC, they necessarily show the ships either at the exact same distance from the camera (that is, the distance to the door), or then show the E-D closer to the camera (meaning the Jenolen is even larger in comparison, thus possibly much larger than the E-D in the worst case). Unlike the ST6:TUC shot or its ilk, explicit story logic prohibits the Jenolin from being closer to the camera than the E-D.

(Of course, that raises a whole set of other perspective questions. How come the doorway seems no thicker than the length of the ship, either ship? Shouldn't the shell of the sphere be hundreds of ship-lengths thick at the very least, if not for any other reason, then to accommodate those seas we see? Or are all the seas merely knee-deep? That, however, is outside the story logic that establishes the Jenolaein as a fairly big doorstop.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Also, a slight addendum after browsing through the "Relics" script:

The Jenolan doesn't sound much like a "small starship used primarily as personnel transport". She has a multi-person crew commanded by a Captain (although not necessarily Captain by rank), but our TNG heroes never seem to consider the possibility that she could be carrying passengers. While it would be automatic of them to assume that Scotty was a member of the crew, they should also automatically jump to the conclusion that he was a passenger when his name isn't found in the crew records.

How would we like to define our 23rd century runabout? Any vessel that is fast and small? (Not that the DS9 runabouts ever were considered particularly fast, no matter what their exact top speed.)

Timo Saloniemi