23rd century Runabouts?
- Thread starter Wingsley
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I didn't work on this episode, so when I saw it, I too was thrown by the look of the Jenolan, thinking it was much smaller than (the evidence proves that) it is. The reason is that they used the body of a small shuttle which we've seen in spacedock; we've all seen it. That memory established the size of anything that has the same shape. The size of the warp engines alone doesn't matter because mini warp engines have been used on all shuttles starting with TOS (look at the sketch sheet of ideas for the new shuttle, earlier in this thread). Watching the episode, I was confused by the size of the Jenolan as it held open those massive doors, but passed it off as yet another example of the SFX crew randomly distorting scale, as they did throughout the series (which is why the E-D never looked as big as it really was).
After skimming your discussions and looking at the screencaps, I see that the Jenolan is indeed a large ship with a giant TUB for a body (providing another example of blocking the energy field between warp engines). That massive body chunk, topped with a bridge dome scaled to normal-sized warp engines, just doesn't work. Also, a smaller ship couldn't get to that location on it's own, anyway, so it is indeed a large (ugly-ish) ship.
Andrew-
That original shuttlecraft body is a pretty intriguing piece of work. It's a fairly complex shape, so possibly a careful and labor-intensive new mold for ST6:TUC. But it also features cheap greeblies such as E-D warp nacelle bits, at least in the version that is documented in TNG: The Continuing Mission. That's a bit of a discrepancy when one thinks of it: not much effort has gone into camouflaging those E-D bits. So was the hull perhaps a cheap and quick off-the-shelf item as well?
Certainly the end result is a delight: in ST6:TUC, we see many tips of the hat to the TOS shuttle, like the rear vertical glow rectangles (windows, impulse engines, something else?) and the general hull lines with lateral, dorsal and ventral ridges, although we don't get to see the supposed three forward windows. In "Relics", the monobloc bulk of the hull nicely evokes the feel of a transport vessel, and the removal of the glowing bits nicely creates an instant shuttlebay of plausible shape and dimensions.
In ST:Generations, though, the shuttle version is seen back in action. And not in mere stock footage, either. Does this mean the Jenolan was broken up and rebuilt as a shuttle? Or that a new mold was made? Or does this mean that the hull really is available off the shelf somehow, and could easily be used to build another shuttle that looks much like the ST6 one?
Given the presence of the E-D warp nacelle endcaps on the underbelly of the shuttle-sized version, and also given the fact that this underbelly is not seen in ST6 but is barely glimpsed in Generations, we could well say that this design is a warp-capable small craft (possibly a runabout) in the 24th century. And yeah, it might be a 23rd century warp runabout as well, hopefully just with warp engines that look less 24th-centurish...
Incidentally, are there any good and sharp pics of the shuttles as seen in Generations? What sort of labeling is on them? What explanation might exist for the dark blue color scheme on the upper hull? As apparently the whole thing would have to be repainted if a transition from Jenolan to shuttle were made, the reason probably isn't a mere desire to paint over the Jenolan side windows...
Timo Saloniemi
Certainly the end result is a delight: in ST6:TUC, we see many tips of the hat to the TOS shuttle, like the rear vertical glow rectangles (windows, impulse engines, something else?) and the general hull lines with lateral, dorsal and ventral ridges, although we don't get to see the supposed three forward windows. In "Relics", the monobloc bulk of the hull nicely evokes the feel of a transport vessel, and the removal of the glowing bits nicely creates an instant shuttlebay of plausible shape and dimensions.
In ST:Generations, though, the shuttle version is seen back in action. And not in mere stock footage, either. Does this mean the Jenolan was broken up and rebuilt as a shuttle? Or that a new mold was made? Or does this mean that the hull really is available off the shelf somehow, and could easily be used to build another shuttle that looks much like the ST6 one?
Given the presence of the E-D warp nacelle endcaps on the underbelly of the shuttle-sized version, and also given the fact that this underbelly is not seen in ST6 but is barely glimpsed in Generations, we could well say that this design is a warp-capable small craft (possibly a runabout) in the 24th century. And yeah, it might be a 23rd century warp runabout as well, hopefully just with warp engines that look less 24th-centurish...
Incidentally, are there any good and sharp pics of the shuttles as seen in Generations? What sort of labeling is on them? What explanation might exist for the dark blue color scheme on the upper hull? As apparently the whole thing would have to be repainted if a transition from Jenolan to shuttle were made, the reason probably isn't a mere desire to paint over the Jenolan side windows...
Timo Saloniemi
Of course any discussion of a runabout existing earlier than DS9's pilot is retconning anyway.
But to me, "runabout" indicates a small single-deck ship with limited range. Like an extra-large special-purpose shuttle. Therefore anything with three decks is too big to be classed as a runabout.
The Jenolan clearly has at least three rows of windows indicating at least three decks, situated in a way that clearly shows there is room for even more decks above and below without windows. Windows, bridge, impulse and nacelle size all clearly indicate a large ship. The fact that it's shaped like a shuttle didn't cloud my opinion and make me think it was shuttle-sized.
But to me, "runabout" indicates a small single-deck ship with limited range. Like an extra-large special-purpose shuttle. Therefore anything with three decks is too big to be classed as a runabout.
The Jenolan clearly has at least three rows of windows indicating at least three decks, situated in a way that clearly shows there is room for even more decks above and below without windows. Windows, bridge, impulse and nacelle size all clearly indicate a large ship. The fact that it's shaped like a shuttle didn't cloud my opinion and make me think it was shuttle-sized.
I might just barely allow for three decks, the same way that some of today's speedboats are overbloated three-deckers. I'm not going to consider RMS Titanic a runabout, though, despite her being a fast personnel transport...
Even allowing for that cavernous shuttlebay, there is probably roughly as much pressurized space inside the Sydney as there is aboard Kirk's ship. That's where looking like a brick pays off.
Timo Saloniemi
Even allowing for that cavernous shuttlebay, there is probably roughly as much pressurized space inside the Sydney as there is aboard Kirk's ship. That's where looking like a brick pays off.
Timo Saloniemi
Its actually a lot taller then those three decks but being mainly a freighter she probably doesn't have that much crew anyway 
I do wonder about the large impulse engines, even a Galaxy class ship would be jealous.
Also her hull shape is intriguing, it looks like a ship, I mean the kind that floats on water... large water landing capable freighter?
I do wonder about the large impulse engines, even a Galaxy class ship would be jealous.
Also her hull shape is intriguing, it looks like a ship, I mean the kind that floats on water... large water landing capable freighter?
And if you'll recall, in the pilot for TNG we see an Excelsior-class ship that, by all indications, is almost as long as the E-D. Certainly more than the 460-ish meters that Excelsior is supposed to be.
BTW, I'm really all for the "agree to disagree" thing. It just seems a bit silly to go against all of the evidence presented, as well as what was intended for the size of the ship. That's the only reason I've commented on it.
I'm usually pretty good at picking up on this stuff, but the episode was almost over before it occured to me that the Jenolen model was a re-use of the SpaceDock shuttle.
I respectfully disagree that it doesn't work, sir. With the line of thinking that this is more of a freighter than a simple transport, it reminds me of the ungainly ocean going freighters of our own times. As such, the use of the Refit items doesn't bother me, no offend my aesthetics, tho I still find it a fugly ship.
And to bring this back around to the original topic... I always wanted to see a cargo carrying mission assigned to a Runabout on DS9. To my thinking it would have further illustrated the versitality of the design to have container modules instead of the living model attached.
No problem. That's what makes these little chats interesting.
The reason it doesn't work (for me) is that there's a kind of cross-themed look to the ship, and it just feels kludged together,... there's no design continuity to it. Yes, we should expect to see ungainly-looking cargo ships, but, in my opinion, that particular arrangement doesn't work.
I agree. That's why the TNG shuttlecraft had full-side gull-wing-type doors designed into it. Look at the 'detail' image on this page: TNG Shuttle Art and see the seam which is also on the 'Concept Kit' model. The two seat rows were on platforms that could each be removed for half or (with both rows out) full cargo, medivac use, whatever. The Runabout did have a cargo module contingency but like my shuttle variation, it was unused.
Andrew-
Ooo! Once I saw what you had planned for that shuttle I was sorely disappointed that we never saw more. I realize that a lot of it was likely the cost of building a full-sized mockup, but it was still something that would have been awesome to see on-screen. Oh, well. At least we have your model.
On a semi-related note, I also like what you had planned for the TMP Shuttlecraft. Would it be safe to say that the Vulcan Long-Range Shuttle could be equated to a Runabout?
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Bill George designed the TUC shuttlecraft as a bridge between TOS and TNG, and its approach to dock was supposed to evoke the 2001 space clipper Orion approaching the space station. He used a variety of existing model parts, but since he's the guy who said 'continuity is for wusses' he probably didn't think it mattered that any of the parts suggested a different scale (especially since the thing is on screen for just a short time.)
For example, the MERCHANTMAN ship in SFS and zillions of ModernTrek eps has got a bunch of model parts too, and I'm pretty sure IT has a refit bridge module on it. Doubt that's to any likely scale either.
As for the shuttle in GEN, it is definitely a miniature, not CG. They shot it with a lens that had some barrel distortion, and then had to apply that same look to the matte painting, which was tough to do.
As for who did the greebling up to make the Genolen, I haven't got a clue, sory.
As I understand it, a "runabout" is supposedly a mini-starship, with its own U.S.S. name and NCC registry, that is smaller than a starship of the line (like Sisko's Defiant) but larger than a shuttlecraft. A runabout is classified differently than a shuttle in terms of it being a true multi-warp-speed craft that is distinctly more independent than a shuttle, but not so independent that it could be called a starship-of-the-line in its own right.
I think of runabouts as having some characteristics of "PBY" seaplanes from World War II, as opposed to fighters or bombers. Another, better analogy may be to see runabouts as ships: they are not destroyers, but they are definite ships, perhaps as solid a craft as the PT-109 or perhaps moreso. Shuttlecraft would be like smaller speedboats.
Memory Alpha has some interesting articles on runabouts:
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Runabout
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Danube_class
I think of runabouts as having some characteristics of "PBY" seaplanes from World War II, as opposed to fighters or bombers. Another, better analogy may be to see runabouts as ships: they are not destroyers, but they are definite ships, perhaps as solid a craft as the PT-109 or perhaps moreso. Shuttlecraft would be like smaller speedboats.
Memory Alpha has some interesting articles on runabouts:
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Runabout
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Danube_class
But remember, they have to be smaller than the ship that 7 of 9's parents had. which had three decks. It was never once referred to as a runabout.
Then again, she wasn't referred to as anything else, either. And we need to remember that Starfleet and civilians could use different language when describing the same vessels.
Civilians wouldn't say "transport". They'd say "freighter", and probably would feel the need to specify which sort of a freighter: tramp, packet, bulk, container... The military simply says "transport" to cover all of those, much like they say "aircraft" to cover anything from jet planes to choppers to aerostats.
Seven's parents supposedly flew a civilian vessel (even though the logs and dedication plaque said she was "USS" Raven, and USS is generally associated with Starfleet). Starfleet might perhaps have classified that vessel as a runabout even if the Hansens didn't. Although probably Starfleet would have said "survey ship" or something. Outside canon, that vessel type has been considered both "colonizer" and "surveyor" (supposedly there are two variants carrying different gear) in the Starfleet Command series of computer games.
Speaking of canonicity, aired Trek only sports this single Danube class of runabouts (plus the alt-universe Yellowstone variant), so we can't deduce much about what is a runabout and what isn't in their eyes. Novels seldom mention the designation, either. The ship and nautica buff Diane Carey once used "interstellar runabout" to describe a smallish multi-deck vessel in her novel Final Frontier, while Peter David has been using "runabout" and "shuttle" interchangeably for some of his starship auxiliaries in New Frontier.
Still, at the end of the day, I'd like to see the designation "runabout" given some fairly narrow and informative meaning. "Big, fast, independent shuttle" and "Tiny, slow ship auxiliary to installations" narrow it down between them rather nicely, IMHO.
Timo Saloniemi
Civilians wouldn't say "transport". They'd say "freighter", and probably would feel the need to specify which sort of a freighter: tramp, packet, bulk, container... The military simply says "transport" to cover all of those, much like they say "aircraft" to cover anything from jet planes to choppers to aerostats.
Seven's parents supposedly flew a civilian vessel (even though the logs and dedication plaque said she was "USS" Raven, and USS is generally associated with Starfleet). Starfleet might perhaps have classified that vessel as a runabout even if the Hansens didn't. Although probably Starfleet would have said "survey ship" or something. Outside canon, that vessel type has been considered both "colonizer" and "surveyor" (supposedly there are two variants carrying different gear) in the Starfleet Command series of computer games.
Speaking of canonicity, aired Trek only sports this single Danube class of runabouts (plus the alt-universe Yellowstone variant), so we can't deduce much about what is a runabout and what isn't in their eyes. Novels seldom mention the designation, either. The ship and nautica buff Diane Carey once used "interstellar runabout" to describe a smallish multi-deck vessel in her novel Final Frontier, while Peter David has been using "runabout" and "shuttle" interchangeably for some of his starship auxiliaries in New Frontier.
Still, at the end of the day, I'd like to see the designation "runabout" given some fairly narrow and informative meaning. "Big, fast, independent shuttle" and "Tiny, slow ship auxiliary to installations" narrow it down between them rather nicely, IMHO.
Timo Saloniemi
I'd say, personally, that the Danubes are (both in-universe and in reality) the first and only starships (so far) to be called runabouts.
In reality, they were developed specifically for the show Deep Space Nine. The first episode is the first time anyone saw or heard of a runabout.
In universe (IMHO), Starfleet developed the brand new class of ships referred to as runabouts roughly around the time Ben Sisco took command of DS9, and they were deployed at bases around the fleet at that time, including DS9. They were a new idea that didn't exist before that.
In reality, they were developed specifically for the show Deep Space Nine. The first episode is the first time anyone saw or heard of a runabout.
In universe (IMHO), Starfleet developed the brand new class of ships referred to as runabouts roughly around the time Ben Sisco took command of DS9, and they were deployed at bases around the fleet at that time, including DS9. They were a new idea that didn't exist before that.
The episode "Paradise" strongly suggests that runabouts are new to Starfleet.
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