I definitely agree.
My taste just prefers the bit less sophisticated technology for the show.
I really like the way technology and space in general were treated in TMP.
200 year hole??
- Thread starter RobertScorpio
- Start date
I definitely agree.
My taste just prefers the bit less sophisticated technology for the show.
I really like the way technology and space in general were treated in TMP.
no one remembers Attila the Hun, or Genghis Khan either by that logic.
Depends on your definition of "remember". Virtually nobody uses "Attila the Hun" in a sentence today, including those who are in the same general profession of, say, looting or fortune-fighting or collecting protection money or empire-building. He just isn't a household name any more.
Also depends on who you are. We around here certainly won't be remembered. Would Jonathan Archer? Depends on whether he was special. And being first doesn't necessarily count if others quickly follow and outshine you. There was supposedly this Romulan War thing soon after Archer's exploits, involving basically the same sort of heroics of commanding starships, fighting strange aliens, unraveling great mysteries, and going where none went before. Quite possibly, people from that era left Archer in their shadow. And if our TOS or TNG heroes don't consider those other people household names any more, then they won't spare a thought for Archer.
Timo Saloniemi
Also depends on who you are. We around here certainly won't be remembered. Would Jonathan Archer? Depends on whether he was special. And being first doesn't necessarily count if others quickly follow and outshine you. There was supposedly this Romulan War thing soon after Archer's exploits, involving basically the same sort of heroics of commanding starships, fighting strange aliens, unraveling great mysteries, and going where none went before. Quite possibly, people from that era left Archer in their shadow. And if our TOS or TNG heroes don't consider those other people household names any more, then they won't spare a thought for Archer.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, Obama will be sworn in in Washington, D.C. on Tuesday. I wonder if the band that plays at his inaugural party will be R & B, or some grunge group from Seattle, Washington? Oh, and have I mentioned that I was born in Washington, MO?
Hold on a sec - I need to give my kids some lunch money for school today. A few one dollar bills, and some quarters - whose picture is on there, again?
And that's just one example - I can think of a ton of others.
We know that Archer has a planet named after him, and a starship class, and I've seen him referred to at least one place as "The Father of The Federation".
Washington is a household name as of 2009, Adams is not; quirks of fortune. Attila is barely remembered, the at least as influential and probably far more pivotal king Genseric of Vandals is forgotten; quirks of fortune. Perhaps people in the 23rd and 24th centuries chiefly remember the famous Admiral Williams, who used to be a lowly Commander back when whowazzit commanded Earth's first long range starship, the whachamacallem, on a mission of whatwasitagain.
Archer has a starship class named after him? Since when? And the only place where it's suggested he might have planets named after him is a document read out loud in a mirror universe, originating from yet another mirror universe for all we know. The "Father of the Federation" title ain't from the canonical universe, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Archer has a starship class named after him? Since when? And the only place where it's suggested he might have planets named after him is a document read out loud in a mirror universe, originating from yet another mirror universe for all we know. The "Father of the Federation" title ain't from the canonical universe, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Are we talking John Adams, J Q Adams, or Samuel Adams? If it's the last one, I beg to differ.
I have to accuse you of a touch of intellectual snobbery, btw. Most of my friends - not all of whom are nerds, and almost all of whom are products of South Carolina public education - would know who John Adams was, and would have at least a caricature understanding of who Attila the Hun was. Calling someone who is large and overbearing "Attila" is actually not uncommon around here - and no, I'm not just saying that for the sake of this argument. I've heard it all my life.
And people of importance frequently continue to have relevance in name, even if the knowledge of the details has mostly gone by the wayside. Most Americans do know of Sam Adams as a beermaker, even if that's all they know about him. And the intellectuals who bother to find out where the beer's name came from will continue to know the details.
Genseric of Vandals isn't forgotten - or you couldn't have mentioned him.
You're right, though, that some important people have fallen out of the common knowledge of history - like Genseric. But two things to counter that: 1. The spread of the mechanical press, mass media, and the internet have allowed continuing improvements in the maintenance of human knowledge, and 2. Since the start of recorded history, people always remember the 'biggies'. You know, people who do stuff like die for the sins of mankind, or stop the planet from being blown up by a giant Xindi weapon. (For that matter, it really wouldn't surprise me if some obscure religion was founded after that happened. If there's a Church of Brady Love - and there is - I'd have to say Archerism, in the Trek universe, would actually have a firmer basis!
)The other two points about canon that you made - the starship class, and the "Father of the Federation" bits - I'll concede, but while it is technically possible that the Defiant that ended up in the MU came from a previously unshown universe, I find it highly unlikely that the writers intended for that to be anything other than the Defiant from TOS. One would have to effectively prove a negative to make any other assertion.
Oh, that was never in question - the issue of whether such names would come up in everyday discussion is the interesting one, vis-á-vis references to past Trek heroes by later ones.
Nobody can be forgotten nowadays, thanks to the constant flow of irrelevant data around and through us. One might wonder if some should be forgotten nevertheless... But the impression we get from "later" Trek is still that you have to google for Archer in the LCARS if you want to discuss him.
Hell, Riker had problems recalling things about the great Kirk in "The Naked Now" - although admittedly, such things hovered in his unconscious, obviously thanks to lots of exposure to the history of the man. And Kirk was a fellow Starfleeter from the ship that was Riker's ship's namesake. Archer would have been a foreigner from a barbaric era...
That's all feeling-based, though. In terms of evidence, we have absence of mentions in "later" Trek: the rest is rationalization and speculation.
Timo Saloniemi
You would think in 200 years time, they would think to put surge protectors in the bridge consoles...
ROFL!
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