2 Shore Leave Questions

[Timo]

It should not be forgotten that the very episode offers an interesting counterpoint in that Kirk appeared to favor women noticeably older than himself. The illusion of Ruth takes the form of a 32-year-old actress, supposedly looking exactly like she did back when the nineteen-year-old Jim had the hots on her.

There's no pattern there necessarily, other than Kirk having a thing for blonde women. Likewise, McCoy finding romance in an adventure shared with a younger-looking woman might be an outlier. So the 2260s aren't beholden to what was or wasn't fashionable in the 1960s, let alone to today's hang-ups about such things; we can see whatever we wish in these sporadic bits of data.

(In-universe, we can of course also further argue that both Ruth and Finnegan were aged to better match Kirk's inner images of his old acquaintances, despite what is being said. It's not as if the heroes would really be objective about anything they meet down on the fantasy planet. Given this, for all we know the heroes saw each other in a different light as well, imagining their parners as having the physique and perhaps personality of the movie stars of the day or whatever...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Delta Vega]

My wife is nearly twenty years younger than me but we've not been getting on that well for years! Eventually that two decades does build a bridge between you culturally and interest wise! Plus 'orribles getting in the way doesn't help one bit!
JB

I feel your pain bro

 

[johnnybear]

Thanks, Delta! I'm not sure if I wished I'd remained single to be honest...
JB

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Oops, yes. I think I forgot her because the relationship was long over and because, oh yes, she was a salt vampire.

We've all been there, amirite?

Lots of women marry older men. It was even more common in the '60s than it is now. Note that "The Cage" and "The Conscience of the King" had no problem presenting 18- and 19-year-old women as romantic prospects for mid-30s leading men. It was a cultural norm back then. (Not always -- my mother and father were roughly the same age -- but often.)

And Kirk's old flame Janet Wallace marrying a much older man is a plot point in "The Deadly Years."

...and the actress was in reality 33, but let's be honest, she was portraying much younger than she actually was, almost the virginal helpless maiden role.

That sounds more like you projecting your own assumptions onto the episode than anything that "Shore Leave" tells us. Yeoman Barrows' age is never indicated or even alluded to. No reason to assume that the character wasn't also 33.

 

[plynch]

Men favor youth, for more years of reproductive access to the women. Women favor maturity and wealth, for the resource access for their offspring. This has been empirically validated six ways from Sunday, cross-culturally and historically.

McCoy and Barrows are merely "Doin' what comes natchur'ly."

For a more cultured take:
"You can throw nature out with a pitchfork, but she always comes back with a vengeance." - C G Jung.

 

[plynch]

Thanks, Delta! I'm not sure if I wished I'd remained single to be honest...
JB

Wishing you the best. Earlier you mentioned 'orribles, which is children? I have 4 grown, and man they do interru pt the relationship. i remembe r for years thinking I and my Priscilla were basically co-child-raisers who lived in the same house. So I'm glad you are not underestimating their effect. I've read where men want the woman, while women deep down want the home and hearth.

Not to tell you your biz, but weekly date nights helped a lot. Anyway, wishing you well, brother.

 

[Phaser Two]

Thanks, Delta! I'm not sure if I wished I'd remained single to be honest...
JB

Sorry to hear this, good buddy JB.

 

[MAGolding]

It should not be forgotten that the very episode offers an interesting counterpoint in that Kirk appeared to favor women noticeably older than himself. The illusion of Ruth takes the form of a 32-year-old actress, supposedly looking exactly like she did back when the nineteen-year-old Jim had the hots on her.

There's no pattern there necessarily, other than Kirk having a thing for blonde women. Likewise, McCoy finding romance in an adventure shared with a younger-looking woman might be an outlier. So the 2260s aren't beholden to what was or wasn't fashionable in the 1960s, let alone to today's hang-ups about such things; we can see whatever we wish in these sporadic bits of data.

(In-universe, we can of course also further argue that both Ruth and Finnegan were aged to better match Kirk's inner images of his old acquaintances, despite what is being said. It's not as if the heroes would really be objective about anything they meet down on the fantasy planet. Given this, for all we know the heroes saw each other in a different light as well, imagining their parners as having the physique and perhaps personality of the movie stars of the day or whatever...)

Timo Saloniemi

I doubt that Kirk's images of Ruth were aged much more than they were fifteen years ago.

KIRK: (into communicator) McCoy, do you read me? Ruth. Ruth, how can it be you? How could you possibly be here? You haven't aged. It's been fifteen years.

So Kirk seems to think that Ruth hasn't aged as much as he would expect in fifteen years. Shirley Bonnie was 32 years and 5 month sold when her scenes were filmed and thus it seems fairly likely that Ruth was at least 30 years old when Kirk remembered her from.

Finnegan says:

FINNEGAN: Get up. Get up. Get up. Always fight fair, don't you? True officer and gentleman, you. You stupid underclassman. I've got the edge. I'm still twenty years old. Look at you. You're an old man.

So Kirk may think that he is an old man now that he is in his 30s, or at least remember when he thought people in their thirties were old.

FINNEGAN: I never answer questions from plebes, Jimmy boy.
KIRK: I'm not a plebe. This is today, fifteen years later. What are you doing here?

If "Shore Leave" might be about a year before Kirk said he was 34 in "The Deadly Years" Kirk might be about 33 in "Shore Leave". Fifteen years earlier Kirk might be about 18 when he was a plebe, a first year cadet at the Academy, which seems about right.

So Kirk would have been more likely to be 18 than 19 when he knew Ruth, and thus Ruth would have been more likely to be at least 1.666 times Kirk's age instead of at least about 1.578 .times Kirk's age.

however, Bruce Mars was born 23 October 1935 and turned 31 during filming of "Shore Leave", so possibly Kirk imagined that Finnegan had aged a number of years since he was a 20-year-old upperclassman. No doubt Kirk would rather imagine that Finnegan had aged but not matured than picture Ruth aged.

 

[johnnybear]

Wishing you the best. Earlier you mentioned 'orribles, which is children? I have 4 grown, and man they do interru pt the relationship. i remembe r for years thinking I and my Priscilla were basically co-child-raisers who lived in the same house. So I'm glad you are not underestimating their effect. I've read where men want the woman, while women deep down want the home and hearth.

Not to tell you your biz, but weekly date nights helped a lot. Anyway, wishing you well, brother.

No by 'Orribles I meant her male friends to be honest, Plynch! The kids, yes do put a tremendous strain on our relationship but it's always been her rejecting my ideas on how to bring them up and giving in to them all the time which has always led to a lot of arguments my dear Elvi..I mean Plynch!
JB

 

[Delta Vega]

We've all been there, amirite?

And Kirk's old flame Janet Wallace marrying a much older man is a plot point in "The Deadly Years."

That sounds more like you projecting your own assumptions onto the episode than anything that "Shore Leave" tells us. Yeoman Barrows' age is never indicated or even alluded to. No reason to assume that the character wasn't also 33.

To be quite honest, I'm beyond caring now

 

[Phaser Two]

 

[Spock's Barber]

My wife is nearly twenty years younger than me but we've not been getting on that well for years! Eventually that two decades does build a bridge between you culturally and interest wise! Plus 'orribles getting in the way doesn't help one bit!
JB

By " 'orribles" do you mean that dreaded species called the in-laws?

 

[Phaser Two]

No, he said it was her male friends.

 

[johnnybear]

Yes, some simian troglodyte we used to 'work' with! Why she would ever want to have kept in touch with that guy I'll never know! He blocked me on FB because I love talking Trek & Sci-Fi but he does not like it when people disagree with his theories on politics and the like! And I understand she has partaken of a certain drug whilst in his company!
JB

 

[Phaser Two]

Yes, some simian troglodyte we used to 'work' with! Why she would ever want to have kept in touch with that guy I'll never know! He blocked me on FB because I love talking Trek & Sci-Fi but he does not like it when people disagree with his theories on politics and the like! And I understand she has partaken of a certain drug whilst in his company!
JB

What a bummer.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

Now I know which thread to visit any time I'm bumming about being single again.

 

[plynch]

Yes, some simian troglodyte we used to 'work' with! Why she would ever want to have kept in touch with that guy I'll never know! He blocked me on FB because I love talking Trek & Sci-Fi but he does not like it when people disagree with his theories on politics and the like! And I understand she has partaken of a certain drug whilst in his company!
JB

Glad you're here to talk Trek and sci-fi.You're one of the most positive people here, I think.

 

[johnnybear]

Thanks, Plynch! I wouldn't have thought that myself though to be honest!
JB