2 million fewer viewers

[Allyn Gibson]

I can't agree about Waters of Mars though - pretty forgettable stuff.

Really?

It's okay not to like "Waters of Mars." I'm not a big fan of it myself, largely because I find it emotionally hollow. The episode doesn't do anything to justify the Doctor's behavior at the end. Why does he go back to the base? Why does he decide to screw with history? And then, our big, dark, shocking ending, we have no repercussions from it at all. The episode doesn't work on its own, and in context with "The End of Time," it doesn't work at all.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I totally disagree. The Doctor goes back because he thinks that as the last of the Time Lords he can handle a change in a fixed point in time without any repurcassions and without any consequences. He gets cocky with himself - and it makes perfect sense with End of Time, as his vanity got the better of him. "Lived too long," he says, when he realizes that he cares more about his regeneration's span than the life of one good man. Its a conclusion that goes back to his erred decision to help Adelaide and co. off Mars, as he thought he could do anything just because he's the Doctor, and he's cool. When he sees the Ood, he realizes that he went too far with his own self-importance, and understands Adelaide's criticism meant that no one man should be this contempt and douchy.

 

[Starkers]

Yeah we know that, it's just that there's nothing in particular about Bowie Base or its characters or situation that push him, he just decides, on this one random occasion, to hell with it. The episode needed some sort of driver that pushed him to say "Not this time!" I think Allyn hits the nail squarely on the head, it's emotionally hollow.

Even the ending is kinda ruined because what does Ten do with this newfound epiphany? Does he immediately race to face his fate, to check on the Ood?

Nah he goes on a big long bender... people complain about Moffat era Doctors having a pre regeneration/death wake but RTD started it.

Very close to my thoughts, except that instead of an "intermediate special," I'd have had the Doctor take Lady Cristina to Bowie Base One where she gets infected with the water. Otherwise, the rest would be the same.

That would have worked just as well, maybe even better, and would have obviously been a lot cheaper

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yeah we know that, it's just that there's nothing in particular about Bowie Base or its characters or situation that push him, he just decides, on this one random occasion, to hell with it. The episode needed some sort of driver that pushed him to say "Not this time!" I think Allyn hits the nail squarely on the head, it's emotionally hollow.

You're both absolutely wrong. The Doctor doesn't need a push, because he's the Doctor - he's someone who will save people because thats who he is. If it wasn't the fixed point in time an issue, he would've helped them even earlier than that.

Its his own self-importance that makes him go back and help them. I think thats clear to understand. If you don't understand that what he did was wrong, even if he did save those people's lives, then you don't quite get the episode, or the reason why Ten had to die.

Even the ending is kinda ruined because what does Ten do with this newfound epiphany? Does he immediately race to face his fate, to check on the Ood?

Nah he goes on a big long bender...

Because Ten didn't want to die. Isn't that crystal clear? He didn't. He realizes his wrong doing, but not enough to realize that he's overdue for a regeneration. If we take PhiL Ford's suggestion of Dreamland taking place after Waters, then the Doctor is clearly trying to make up for his behaviour, and yet the Ood tell him that he's been, simply, too late. Ever since Journey's End, he evaded his destiny because of his vanity, and thats clearly the theme of the ending of Waters of Mars.

people complain about Moffat era Doctors having a pre regeneration/death wake but RTD started it.

Because again, the Tenth Doctor was vain. Even Moffat says very much so, in both Day and Time of the Doctor, thought Eleven. The problem was Moffat doing it in series 6 was that it barely made sense, because Eleven's certainly not as vain as Ten, and because the whole thing just seemed like a lame repeat of another idea, done less than a year earlier. Its like having another Trial of a Time Lord season in season 25, two seasons after 23's Trial. Its lame, no wonder about it.

 

[Mr Awe]

I still feel that it was missing a special. Planet of the Dead should have ended with Lady Cristina going off in the Tardis with the Doctor. There should have then been another special linking it with WoM. This intermediate special would have started out like a fun romp but got darker as it went on until, at the end, Cristina is killed. Imagine then the Doctor showing up on Mars, haunted by yet another companion's death and by his own failure, suddenly Timelord Victorious makes even more sense.

Very close to my thoughts, except that instead of an "intermediate special," I'd have had the Doctor take Lady Cristina to Bowie Base One where she gets infected with the water. Otherwise, the rest would be the same.

Both are great ideas which would've added to an ongoing storyline!

Mr Awe

 

[Samurai8472]

Yeah they just decided

"Oh we'll make this special a disposable one. Something for fun at easter"

Then they ramp up and get serious with "The water of mars" in November


FYI I'd really like to hear/read from Moffat on his thoughts about the specials.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

You're both absolutely wrong.

No, these are things on which reasonable people can disagree.

The Doctor doesn't need a push, because he's the Doctor - he's someone who will save people because thats who he is.

The thing is, I think he does need a push, because the episode reads like the whole reason the Doctor walks out and then comes back is because of the millions of kids screaming at their televisions, "Doctor, you have to save them!" Which, frankly, is nonsense. The Doctor can be (and often is) a right bastard. He doesn't have to save anyone.

Its his own self-importance that makes him go back and help them. I think thats clear to understand. If you don't understand that what he did was wrong, even if he did save those people's lives, then you don't quite get the episode, or the reason why Ten had to die.

I find it difficult to draw any meaningful connection between the events of "The Waters of Mars" and the end of the second tenth Doctor's life.

 

[Relayer1]

I've just Wiki'd Waters to remind myself exactly what happened. As I said, not that memorable !

Very little of RTD's writing worked for me. I think he's a good character writer, but not exactly gifted at sci-fi - he wrote a lot of the awful episodes. Not that Waters was bad, it wasn't, but it wasn't great either.

 

[Stevil2001]

I was just talking to a friend about this today-- I think a world where Doctor Who is only specials is a world without "Blink" or "Midnight" or "Flatline" or "The Caretaker," all bits of Doctor Who I would be loathe to lose. None of those have the spectacle you'd need to hang the marketing of a special on.

 

[RoJoHen]

I think "Waters of Mars" works better if you ignore "The Next Doctor" and "Planet of the Dead." If it takes place immediately following "Journey's End," the Doctor's motivations are easier to see. At the end of Series 4, he loses Donna. He loses Rose AGAIN. He "loses" the battle because his half-human doppleganger commits genocide, and all of his other companions leave him behind.

He is tired of losing. So when he sees an opportunity in "Waters of Mars" to win, to say "Fuck you, universe, you're not going to do this to me again," he takes it. And then he has to face the consequences.

 

[Relayer1]

I was just talking to a friend about this today-- I think a world where Doctor Who is only specials is a world without "Blink" or "Midnight" or "Flatline" or "The Caretaker," all bits of Doctor Who I would be loathe to lose. None of those have the spectacle you'd need to hang the marketing of a special on.

By the same token, we've had a LOT of opportunities for that sort of thing, but relatively few for feature length big event minimovies.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Hopefully it would be better than the Moffat Christmas specials.

There's more chance of a great result from specials than from full seasons with all the filler and sub standard stuff.

I know this is my American viewing habits showing, but it's crazy to me that seasons that are only 12 episodes long could even have filler.

The Mentalist had 5 and a half seasons of filler.

And The Mentalist had 22+ episode seasons... or were you just agreeing?

 

[Relayer1]

Hopefully it would be better than the Moffat Christmas specials.

There's more chance of a great result from specials than from full seasons with all the filler and sub standard stuff.

I know this is my American viewing habits showing, but it's crazy to me that seasons that are only 12 episodes long could even have filler.

There's a story did the rounds some time ago about possible UK spinoff from Buffy, starring Giles. Whedon and co. had agreed that several sample scripts should be written. Three months later he was told that they needed longer to get the samples together, at which point he pointed out that he was showrunning two series and writing most of each season of Buffy himself !

No Giles series was forthcoming...

 

[StCoop]

To put the numbers in perspective (and to convince anyone outside the UK that the British are insane)...

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s215...with-134-million-viewers.html#~pqx2l18vra40Zv

 

[stardream]

To put the numbers in perspective (and to convince anyone outside the UK that the British are insane)...

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s215...with-134-million-viewers.html#~pqx2l18vra40Zv

Maybe Peter Capaldi should bake a cake.

 

[Starkers]

Clearly Clara needs to work on her soufflés

 

[MacLeod]

Perhaps next year GBBO should be moved to Saturdays and act as a lead in for DW then.

 

[StCoop]

Perhaps next year GBBO should be moved to Saturdays and act as a lead in for DW then.

The series already has the second most popular show on Television as it's lead in and it doesn't help.

That's right; in 2015 the two most successful programmes on British TV are (a) People making cakes and (b) Ballroom dancing.

It's like the 1950s never ended.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I watched the last season of The Great British Baking Show (its American title) last year as a lead-in to Downton Abbey on PBS. I loved it, it was great!

I couldn't stand one of the show's hosts, however, the one with black hair and glasses. She was super annoying and I wanted her gone.

 

[StCoop]

I couldn't stand one of the show's hosts, however, the one with black hair and glasses. She was super annoying and I wanted her gone.

Ooh, you don't like Sue Perkins. Better watch out for pitchfork wielding Liberal Elites snaking up on you.