1701-A

[Paradise City]

Miranda class has the nacelles of a Constitution class ship. Sisko's ship at 359 was such a vessel.

Interestingly an Oberth class vessel was at 359. Y'know that scrawny looking ship investigating Genesis in STIII that was taken out by accident by a Bop with one shot? Well, 80 years later, it's toughing it out with the borg!

For me, the Constitution class was retired long before as per the general conversation in Relics. We're seeing another ship there IMO.

 

[Richard Baker]

As much as Star Fleet designers love to swap and rearrange modular components, I can that secondary hull having been used in a number of different ships including the Constitution/Refit.

 

[Dukhat]

The A was always a funny one for me - it just felt like they cheaped out a little, giving us the same model with an extra letter slapped on it. If you're going to give us a new Enterprise, give us a new Enterprise.

It had nothing to do with being cheap. The original plan was that the Excelsior would be the crew's new ship, because the VFX personnel hated filming the larger and unwieldy TMP Enterprise model. When those plans ended up changing, there wasn't enough time to design and build a new model for a five-second scene, so they reluctantly went with the old one, not knowing if there'd be any more films after TVH.

Of course, hindsight being 20/20, if they had known that the decision would be made to create TNG after TVH, they could have built a new model for the Enterprise-A and have it be the ship used in TNG. But obviously that didn't happen.

IIRC they also wanted to be able to use existing stock footage in later films.

Which, if true, ironically never happened.

The BoP explosion, on the other hand, is a different and altogether more sordid story.

 

[Richard Baker]

That BoP explosion was a travesty- they could have at least flipped the shot from right to left and added a couple of new elements on top of what they already had.

 

[publiusr]

Agreed! The explosion could have been altered a bit.

I would have liked to have seen the 1701-A refit made a bit sleeker, as I attempted with Balson and other parts on the web:

http://i.imgur.com/9TYY7iB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NtKLDHU.jpg

I'm sorry, but ick.

That's okay--everybody has different tastes after all

Mr. Scott's guide was written by a novelist wasn't it? The idea that A is the ex-Yorktown is stuff that Okuda has in his material. I'm inclined to take my cue from Okuda personally.

ICE author Shane Johnson
http://www.trekplace.com/shanejohnson.html

He was going to freshen up Mr. Scott's guide a bit. http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic424.html#p3792

Personally I would have liked some visual difference between the Refit and the A. Not too drastic, I know they wanted to reuse the same filming model, but a different looking Bridge, a aft facing Photorp launcher on the neck housing, just something that told us it was a newer ship instead of just altering the hull graphics.

I wonder if Shane would have done that?

 

[InklingStar]

That BoP explosion was a travesty- they could have at least flipped the shot from right to left and added a couple of new elements on top of what they already had.

We who saw the movies first-run saw the two explosions only two years apart. I'm going through the series chronologically with my wife now, so there will have been 200-odd TNG and DS9 episodes in between. Perhaps she won't notice.

It still bugs me though.

 

[Lance]

Miranda class has the nacelles of a Constitution class ship. Sisko's ship at 359 was such a vessel.

Interestingly an Oberth class vessel was at 359. Y'know that scrawny looking ship investigating Genesis in STIII that was taken out by accident by a Bop with one shot? Well, 80 years later, it's toughing it out with the borg!

For me, the Constitution class was retired long before as per the general conversation in Relics. We're seeing another ship there IMO.

The problem with that is that the Connie we see in Relics is an original configuration. One suspects the whole point of the refit program was to prolong their life beyond it's original span, and if Mirandas and Oberths are both still in service in TNG's time, then there's no reason why Constitution-Refits couldn't still be knocking around on non-essential duties..... but then, again, I err on the side of thinking the one single instance we see of a Connie in TNG was simply the fleet bootstrapping an out-of-service starship into battle readiness at short notice. Maybe a Constitution-Refit would still be capable of battle-readiness, where a ''No Bloody A, B, C or D!'' original configuration would be beyond help by the 24th century.

Maybe that ties in with why we rarely see Constellation Class ships knocking about as well (the Stargazer was a 'lost ship', but the likes of USS Hathaway seem to still be in property only for things like war game simulations). The only 'in service' Constellation we know of is the USS Victory IIRC, and that isn't necessarily a 'front line' ship, at least until (like the unnamed Connie-refit we see at Wolf 359) it gets bootstrapped into active service during the Dominion War.

It does lend one to wonder, however: *if* there are all these old out-of-service starships that are only wheeled out for special duties from time to time, then where does Starfleet keep them all? They can't all be in museums.

The status of Constitutions in the 2360s hinges a lot on dialogue from "Relics".

Just because one ship is in a museum doesn't mean that there aren't other ships of that class still in active service. Plus, since Picard is clearly looking at a TOS-style Connie when he makes his statement, it can be logically deduced that post-TMP refits and newbuilds, like the Miranda and Constellation classes, stand a good chance of still being around.

Exactly.

 

[King Bob!]

It does lend one to wonder, however: *if* there are all these old out-of-service starships that are only wheeled out for special duties from time to time, then where does Starfleet keep them all? They can't all be in museums.

Probably Surplus Depots like Qualor II ("Unification").

 

[Lance]

It does lend one to wonder, however: *if* there are all these old out-of-service starships that are only wheeled out for special duties from time to time, then where does Starfleet keep them all? They can't all be in museums.

Probably Surplus Depots like Qualor II (''Unification'').

Good point.

I had this image in my mind's eye of the inside of the SFS starbase in Earth's orbit cluttered up with used Starships, and a Sovereign trying to 'reverse park' itself into a spot between a Connie-Refit and a Constellation.

 

[publiusr]

Actually, that secondary hull comes from the mold that made the E-C, not the E-nil/A. And the ship is built to a scale that matches that of the E-C hull, too.

http://scottmcgee.org/www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359/princeton-model.jpg

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359/princeton-parts.gif

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/niagara.htm

Timo Saloniemi

Speaking of ship graveyeards, I this this in a store recently:

http://www.toysrus.com/buy/figures/miles-from-tomorrowland-stellosphere-l86210-57583726

Flip it--and it is an Excelsior hull

 

[Galileo7]

The newly commissioned 1701-A as stated and shown in TFF was having major problems, so it is extremely illogical that a Starfleet Admiral [Harve Bennett] orders the only experienced veteran Captain Kirk to Nimbus III on board her with a skeleton crew. Especially and most importantly since the Admiral states that there are other starships in the quadrant. Logically, the Admiral should have ordered another functioning starship to pick up Kirk and then he would have dealt with the problem immediately with a functioning transporter and full crew. Of course, then TFF would have been a mere prologue or short film. I would have accepted Kirk taking out the NX-2000 Excelsior ( parked in Spacedock ) to Nimbus III, as long as it was finally ready to go.

 

[Timo]

Well, if we assume that Kirk was given the used starship as a punishment, it logically follows that his superiors would also give him missions that are doomed to fail...

Really, it was pretty obvious that nothing was at stake for Starfleet or the Federation at Nimbus III, just as there was nothing at stake for the Klingon or Romulan Empires. If the mission helps Starfleet end Kirk's career in disgrace, all the better!

Remember that Kirk did send out a distress call after reaching the emergency transmitter. Klaa's ship overheard and responded - but Starfleet apparently did not bother!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Galileo7]

Well, if we assume that Kirk was given the used starship as a punishment, it logically follows that his superiors would also give him missions that are doomed to fail...

Really, it was pretty obvious that nothing was at stake for Starfleet or the Federation at Nimbus III, just as there was nothing at stake for the Klingon or Romulan Empires. If the mission helps Starfleet end Kirk's career in disgrace, all the better!

Remember that Kirk did send out a distress call after reaching the emergency transmitter. Klaa's ship overheard and responded - but Starfleet apparently did not bother!

Timo Saloniemi

True. Starfleet was probably glad Kirk was lost on 1701-B maiden voyage around the solar system in GEN.

 

[ItIsGreen]

Actually, that secondary hull comes from the mold that made the E-C, not the E-nil/A. And the ship is built to a scale that matches that of the E-C hull, too.

http://scottmcgee.org/www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359/princeton-model.jpg

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359/princeton-parts.gif

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/niagara.htm

Timo Saloniemi

By "that secondary hull", are you referring to the one in the foreground of this picture?

Bernd Schneider has an excellent discussion of Wolf 359 here, including this picture of what appears to be a Constitution-class secondary hull:

That's clearly a Constitution-refit style secondary hull (whether or not it was used on an actual Constitution-class vessel, as has been discussed already). The images and pages you've linked to appear to be discussing an entirely different wreck in the BoBW graveyard.

The image below is from the ex astris scientia page you linked to and looks to be part of the same fx shot as the photo above (note the wreck directly below the E-D in the picture). It shows the 'Niagara-class' ship (with the Ambassador style secondary hull) in position somewhere starboard of the Enterprise, whereas the Constitution style hull is somewhere astern on her port side. Two different ships:

 

[Dukhat]

The newly commissioned 1701-A as stated and shown in TFF was having major problems, so it is extremely illogical that a Starfleet Admiral [Harve Bennett] orders the only experienced veteran Captain Kirk to Nimbus III on board her with a skeleton crew. Especially and most importantly since the Admiral states that there are other starships in the quadrant. Logically, the Admiral should have ordered another functioning starship to pick up Kirk and then he would have dealt with the problem immediately with a functioning transporter and full crew. Of course, then TFF would have been a mere prologue or short film. I would have accepted Kirk taking out the NX-2000 Excelsior ( parked in Spacedock ) to Nimbus III, as long as it was finally ready to go.

No one should ever try to use the logic presented in this film as any kind of proof for anything. And on that note:

Well, if we assume that Kirk was given the used starship as a punishment, it logically follows that his superiors would also give him missions that are doomed to fail...

Kirk wasn't given the Enterprise-A as a punishment. He was given it as a reward for saving Earth under the paper-thin guise of a punishment for disobeying orders and being reduced in rank to captain. Even the President knew what he was really doing here, and Kirk knew right along with him. It's completely obvious in their expressions and the way they're talking.

Really, it was pretty obvious that nothing was at stake for Starfleet or the Federation at Nimbus III, just as there was nothing at stake for the Klingon or Romulan Empires. If the mission helps Starfleet end Kirk's career in disgrace, all the better!

That was not the implication that the movie gave at all. You're making that assumption simply because it was a poorly written film that made no sense.

Remember that Kirk did send out a distress call after reaching the emergency transmitter. Klaa's ship overheard and responded - but Starfleet apparently did not bother!

Starfleet didn't bother because, as Admiral Bob stated, they had no experienced captains, only Kirk. Which again makes completely zero sense. Even if Bob was flat-out lying to Kirk in order to purposely put him in a dangerous situation, Kirk himself should have been smart enough to say, "No other experienced captains, Bob? Really? Just what are you smoking, Admiral? The same stuff Shatner was smoking when he wrote this script?"

As Galileo7 above said, Kirk could at least have asked Bob for the Excelsior. But he didn't even do that. Why? Because NOTHING IN THAT MOVIE MADE ANY F%@*&ING SENSE!

 

[King Bob!]

Kirk wasn't given the Enterprise-A as a punishment. He was given it as a reward for saving Earth under the paper-thin guise of a punishment for disobeying orders and being reduced in rank to captain. Even the President knew what he was really doing here, and Kirk knew right along with him. It's completely obvious in their expressions and the way they're talking.

Nothing necessarily states that the civilian government and Starfleet were on the same page here. Kirk ended up making Starfleet look rather incompetent about the whole Genesis affair. That had to have ruffled some feathers with the higher ups.

 

[Shikarnov]

As Admiral Bob stated, they had no experienced captains, only Kirk. Which again makes completely zero sense.

If you think about some of the COs we see in the movies -- Terrell who ignored a missing planet, Styles with hubris befitting the worst of Greek tragedies, Esteban who would report in to request permission to move his bowels, or nervous Harriman who left dock with half his ship missing -- Would you want one of them taking on a mission of any great importance?

It's sad, I agree, but in context it does make sense. What I'd like to know is how and why the writers decided to change starship commanders, who were considered to be the best of the best in TOS, into fools with varying degrees of incompetence.

Kirk wasn't given the Enterprise-A as a punishment. He was given it as a reward for saving Earth under the paper-thin guise of a punishment for disobeying orders and being reduced in rank to captain. Even the President knew what he was really doing here, and Kirk knew right along with him. It's completely obvious in their expressions and the way they're talking.

Nothing necessarily states that the civilian government and Starfleet were on the same page here. Kirk ended up making Starfleet look rather incompetent about the whole Genesis affair. That had to have ruffled some feathers with the higher ups.

As a rule, Starfleet in the movies is incompetent. Nobody was able to stop V'Ger or the Whale Probe during their light-years journey across Federation space until they were both in Earth's orbit threatening to decimate the planet. Reliant ignored an entire missing planet (including, ostensibly, the evidence of CA VI's destruction -- like a debris field, altered orbits, and etc) which directly lead to their encounter with Khan. Their newest ship, Excelsior, was disabled by removing so few components that Scotty could keep them in his pocket, and on and on and on. Kirk doesn't make them look bad; they just are.

 

[Paradise City]

We can forget by the time the movies come up that Kirk is a diplomat too and a veteran one. Enterprise is a prestigious ship. The Enterprise was sent because you can't screw about kidnapping Federation diplomats. The hoodlums that kidnapped the three ambassadors are planet bound hoodlums. Ship to ship combat wasn't anticipated for this mission.

Mind you, they could've done themselves some favours and tightened up a bit on the dialogue and dumped alot of the pseudo-comedy about the ship malfunctioning.

 

[Shikarnov]

We can forget by the time the movies come up that Kirk is a diplomat too and a veteran one. Enterprise is a prestigious ship. The Enterprise was sent because you can't screw about kidnapping Federation diplomats. The hoodlums that kidnapped the three ambassadors are planet bound hoodlums. Ship to ship combat wasn't anticipated for this mission.

Wasn't it?

CPT KIRK: Have the Klingons responded?
ADM BENNETT (on viewscreen): No, but you can bet they will.

...

DR McCOY: Jim! If you ask me, ...and you haven't, I think this is a terrible idea. We're bound to bump into the Klingons and they don't exactly like you.

...

CPT SCOTT: Don't you worry, Captain. We'll beat those Klingon devils even if I have to get out and push.

 

[SeerSGB]

We can forget by the time the movies come up that Kirk is a diplomat too and a veteran one. Enterprise is a prestigious ship. The Enterprise was sent because you can't screw about kidnapping Federation diplomats. The hoodlums that kidnapped the three ambassadors are planet bound hoodlums. Ship to ship combat wasn't anticipated for this mission.

Mind you, they could've done themselves some favours and tightened up a bit on the dialogue and dumped alot of the pseudo-comedy about the ship malfunctioning.

I like STV, but even I admit it has some big flaws and could have been way better.

They could have ditched the glitchy Enterprise angle, ditched the Klingons, probably ditch the lost brother angle.