16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her rear

[Miss Chicken]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Have you noticed how you are using extreme, unusual and abnormal cases to condeme all discipline? I'm not saying what happened to you was not right but should we also drop grounding? Using your logic here is why: my wife, in high school, was doing something after school with the school and they changed the location. She forgot to call her parents and tell them. She was grounded for a week for that.

Since when have I condoned all discipline. In fact I have specifically said that discipline without violence is possible. I also think discipline without verbal abuse is also possible.

I certainly do not dispprove of grounding, time-out or not allowing the child to do something they enjoy as a punishment.

The most effective form of discipline for my children (when they were primary school age) was to for me to point to a corner when my children were playing up. Once I pointed they knew I meant business and they went and stayed in the corner until I told them they could come out.

Another thing I used was to tell them I was going to count to ten and by that time their bad behaviour should stop.

The only time I think a child should be slapped is if they are too young to reason with and they are doing something dangerous. Then a single single slap for shock value.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

This is as clear as it gets, unless you're Slipper Boy, that spanking doesn't work. All it does is, with a small child, is scare the hell out of them. Absolutely no learning can take place if you spank. Except maybe one thing - they learn that the proper thing to do is to hit someone. She did exactly what she was taught to do.

 

[Captain X]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

I was spanked as a child, and frankly I couldn't tell you if I'd have been better off without it or not. My horror stories are that I was usually spanked with a leather belt, and that I was usually made to go get this instrument of pain. For a while, I was also spanked by my father using a belt that had the ends cut to be something like nine-tails, the irony being that my dad had hated it so much himself that he buried it and hid it so it wouldn't be used on him. Then when he came across it again, he started using it on me. Once he spanked my bare ass with his hand. Once (that I remember anyway) he cuffed me pretty hard upside the head. Once he threatened to spank me using a spade because I was too scared to go in the crawlspace under the shed to recover a key I'd lost there (afraid of the spiders). Looking back, some of the spankings were justified, and some I feel weren't, but I no longer resent my parents for them either way. At the time I did. In fact, spanking wasn't so a much a deterrent so much as an incentive to be sneakier about doing something that might get me spanked.

I don't condemn spanking though, it just doesn't work for all children. It didn't work for me and it didn't work for my oldest sister. It doesn't work for my oldest niece, either. It did work for her mother, and it does work for her younger sister and brother. When spanking doesn't work, making the kid stand or sit in the corner often can work. I was made to stand in the corner with my nose right in it for long periods of time. As an active child, I really, really didn't like that, and actually preferred spanking to standing in the corner, as spanking was over more quickly. So it varies from child to child, and parents need to figure out what works by trial and error. What definitely doesn't work is to try to reason with children as adults - they simply aren't developed psychologically enough for that to work.

Anyway, when I got into middle school, the spankings stopped, and grounding or some other restriction of privileges was used.

 

[Kelthaz]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

For everyone who thinks they turned out "better" because they were spanked/hit/thrown against a wall, and the today's society is too easy on kids, try to remember that for generations, kids were spanked at home and strapped and beaten in schools and the world still had robbery, extortion, raping, murder and spitting on the sidewalk. The days of hard discipline on children didn't give us a better society...

Oh right, I forgot about the time we could leave our front doors open and go to the shop without fear of being robbed. Yes crime existed but no where near to the extent it does today. Crime is rising faster and faster by the month.

I can't say I'm too eager to get involved in this debate, but I do want to refute this. Violent crime has been on an enormous downward spiral since the 1970's. A downward spiral for decades.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/17/statscan-crime.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-09-crime_x.htm
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_ny_cops.html

 

[Captain X]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Been on the up-swing in my state...

 

[Cicero]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Been on the up-swing in my state...

Yes, crime has started rising again in the last few years, particularly murder. But the increase has been a very recent development.

 

[Captain X]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Been steadily rising since the late '90s as far as I can tell, but I'd have to look up the actual stats to be sure. There has been a lot of vandalism in Minot the last few years though.

 

[Cicero]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Been steadily rising since the late '90s as far as I can tell, but I'd have to look up the actual stats to be sure. There has been a lot of vandalism in Minot the last few years though.

In Minot, North Dakota?

Violent crime nationwide dropped by half between 1994 and 2001. It hasn't been increasing until the last few years. Here's a chart from Wikipedia.

 

[sidious618]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Corporal punishment is by its nature different. It is violence, even in mild forms.

Reports also say that it doesn't actually work. People just have to defend their parents because they don't want to think that they might have been wrong.

 

[Captain X]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

In Minot, North Dakota?

Yep. They still haven't caught the bastards either. They haven't caught whoever killed that Velva girl either.

Violent crime nationwide dropped by half between 1994 and 2001. It hasn't been increasing until the last few years. Here's a chart from Wikipedia.

ND Crime rates.

 

[Cicero]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

In Minot, North Dakota?

Yep. They still haven't caught the bastards either. They haven't caught whoever killed that Velva girl either.

Violent crime nationwide dropped by half between 1994 and 2001. It hasn't been increasing until the last few years. Here's a chart from Wikipedia.

ND Crime rates.

Wow. Your trends are quite different from those seen nationally. It's hard to find even echos of the same patterns.

 

[Captain X]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Yeah, my state is ... unique ... yeah, that's it.

 

[RyanKCR]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

This is as clear as it gets, unless you're Slipper Boy, that spanking doesn't work. All it does is, with a small child, is scare the hell out of them. Absolutely no learning can take place if you spank. Except maybe one thing - they learn that the proper thing to do is to hit someone. She did exactly what she was taught to do.

Most of that is false. Most of the time a spank is to inflict a shock to the system to break a child out of a behavior they are intent on and get their attention. That is it. It immediately sets boundries and returns control of a situation to the parent and away from the child.

It does not teach a child to deal with problems with violence. I don't know where that idocy came from. There are many times that you will be unable to reason with a child and that is where spanking comes in. Because of some of her behavior my niece has been to see a counselor and now has gained more control. When she's in trouble and they are resoning with her she declares she wants a private conversation with either one of her parents. They go off in a private area, away from the situation and people involved and what she's affecting and nothing ends up happening and she again does the same stuff all over again.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

It does not teach a child to deal with problems with violence. I don't know where that idocy came from. There are many times that you will be unable to reason with a child and that is where spanking comes in.

So, what you're saying is, there's a problem, the parents are allegedly unable to deal with it except through violence, and the child learns nothing from that example. But somehow the strategy is still successful even though the child learns nothing from it. Gotcha.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

One boy in my class got into trouble for telling a teacher that he was wrong about something. The next day he bought a volume of Encyclopedia Britannica to school to prove his point. As punishment for this was made to write "My teacher knows more than the Encyclopedia Britiannica" 100 times.

I did something like that in kindergarten... As punishment, I wasn't allowed back into class until I apologized. when I refused the school called my parents. They stood up for me and I ended up getting black filed, where a mark is put on the outside of your file so teachers can refuse to have you in their class without knowing who you are, had the school try and force their shrink to give me Ritalin, and got denied entrance in any and all advanced placement classes...

I just took the "fuck'em" attitude and coasted through school only doing enough to pass.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

^Wait a minute, your school wanted to put you on prescription medication for something you did in Kindergarten ? That's just messed up.

 

[Captain X]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

Ritalin is the new cure-all for kids. Downside is that some kids actually need it and can be helped by it, but it gets a bad rep because it's overprescribed.

 

[RyanKCR]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

It does not teach a child to deal with problems with violence. I don't know where that idocy came from. There are many times that you will be unable to reason with a child and that is where spanking comes in.

So, what you're saying is, there's a problem, the parents are allegedly unable to deal with it except through violence, and the child learns nothing from that example. But somehow the strategy is still successful even though the child learns nothing from it. Gotcha.

The child learns boundries to behavior. What is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Sometimes just telling a child no is not enough.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

It does not teach a child to deal with problems with violence. I don't know where that idocy came from. There are many times that you will be unable to reason with a child and that is where spanking comes in.

So, what you're saying is, there's a problem, the parents are allegedly unable to deal with it except through violence, and the child learns nothing from that example. But somehow the strategy is still successful even though the child learns nothing from it. Gotcha.

The child learns boundries to behavior. What is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Sometimes just telling a child no is not enough.

So, what you're saying is that they learn that using violence is an effective way to set boundaries on behavior then?

But you're still not sure where that idiocy comes from?

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: 16-year-old girl arrested for punching dad who tried to spank her

^Wait a minute, your school wanted to put you on prescription medication for something you did in Kindergarten ? That's just messed up.

Yup. I was "a trouble maker who had problems accepting authority" and when the school hired shrink told them that the problem was that I was getting bored in class and that a child of my intelligence got bored they get into trouble... Her recommendation of advancing me up a grade was met with a "he's a trouble maker, prescribe him the Ritalin to get him under control in the class he's in." When she refused she was basically told to do it or lose her job. I didn't know any of this till years later, mind you. I really liked her and was sad when she said she was leaving her job. The school then made my parents take me to a private shrink, paid by them. When he told them the same thing, that I was too smart for my grade and should be advanced, they didn't make me go anymore... and took away my recess time and put me in the remedial reading class with kids who couldn't read.

That was all from Kindergarten till second grade...

In middle school I was finally allowed to enter the learning unlimited class... For two marking periods... In the second quarter, the mock congress section, I embarrassed the daughter of the president of the pta when I, working off of two days prep time and without notes, wiped the floor with her in our debate, then went and argued her side of the debate successfully against my team.

I was kicked out, and I quote, "Because my continued presence in the class would be too disruptive and detremental to the other students."

I was given the full years credit and full years credit for the "normal block" of classes I was moved into for the second half of the year, because of this...

Same year I had an english teacher who faild me because I was a male and refused to kiss her ass... The VP said that since I had the double credits from the Learning Unilmited incident that her refusal to give me any credit for the class at the end of the year didn't matter and I was promoted, much to her dissapointment.

In junior year I had an english teacher fail me because "I didn't hand in a term paper" when I did, had five other students who saw me hand it in, and had a watermarked computer file proving I did it... She lost it on purpos to fail me, I later found out. And I had to retake her class.

Same year I had a teacher use something that hadn't been used in ten years. It was called "defaulting" where a student had enough credits to pass a class, but the teacher witholds those credits dependent on the student retaking the class again in summer school or next year because the teacher felt they didn't do enough work in the class. This was the teacher who got pissed at me because I would always help the other students in the class with their work instead of taking class time to do mine... Since I didn't bow to her will I got defaulted and had to repeat the class.

School was hell for me, and it was all because I was smart. It took me a few years to snap out of pretending to be dumber than I was, a tactic I took up to stop getting picked on in school by the other kids who didn't like "smart aleck teacher kiss butt showoffs"...

And the teachers wondered why I was anti social.


I must say though that I did have some good teachers who fought real hard for me behind the scenes who helped me alot too... but there were alot of fucks too.