13-year old not allowed to fly American flag at school.

[RJDiogenes]

Seriously, who is "perfectly fine" with burning the American flag? This never happens (in America, anyway). This is a made up problem.

There have been many flag burnings. During the Vietnam War it was common for protesters to burn the flag to symbolize the abandonment of American principles. Of course, people do it out of hatred, too, but free speech applies to everyone.

How many is "many"? I mean, the Vietnam War ended 35 years ago. How often does this happen today? Is it really a problem that rises to the level of needing a Constitutional Amendment? It seems more like an emotional/wedge kind of issue. A hot-button to get people fired up.

Of course it is. Flag burning is only a problem for people who don't believe in American values. I was responding to your statement that it never happens; it actually does happen, and happened quite frequently in the 60s.

Thank you. I realize that, as a German, you have understandably fused the concepts of nationalism and patriotism with racism, jingoism, and xenophobia. But elsewhere in the world, we value our national symbols.

We remember everyone who fought and died for that same flag. We haven't had a revolving door of governments in the US like you have in Europe. We've had a single nation in a single incarnation. And we would do whatever we need to protect it.

That doesn't mean we're going to round people up and kill them because of their race. Americans are not any one race, religion, or political ideology.

Fortunately, you don't speak for real Americans, just for an extremist sect who prefers the idolatry of symbols to genuine morality. But it's good to know that you won't round up people and kill them for their race-- just beat them to death for desecrating your holy icons.

 

[cultcross]

We remember everyone who fought and died for that same flag.

Our troops fought and died to protect our Constitution and the rights protected therein. One of which includes our right to burn or fly that or any other flag as we see fit.

It is very sad to confuse the symbol with what it represents.

 

[Davros]

^ What about during the game?

Except for World Cup football, I don't watch any kind of sport.

Is there any other kind of sport?

Of course there is, NFL Football the greatest sport of all time.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Including wanting to illegally bludgeon teenagers with the butt of your rifle over vandalism. You're a real hero.

There's nothing illegal about self defense against a mob. The fact that I'm standing between them and their goal doesn't mean I can't defend myself.

So its perfectly legal, don't get your panties in a twist. I bet it would really freak you out if they went onto my property to steal a flag, then I'd pull out my functional rifles.

 

[Subcommander R.]

We remember everyone who fought and died for that same flag.

Our troops fought and died to protect our Constitution and the rights protected therein. One of which includes our right to burn or fly that or any other flag as we see fit.

On your own property its your own business. But you can't run around in public setting things on fire. Its a safety risk and menace.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Of course it is. Flag burning is only a problem for people who don't believe in American values. I was responding to your statement that it never happens; it actually does happen, and happened quite frequently in the 60s.


Fortunately, you don't speak for real Americans, just for an extremist sect who prefers the idolatry of symbols to genuine morality. But it's good to know that you won't round up people and kill them for their race-- just beat them to death for desecrating your holy icons.

Burning the symbol of freedom to show how much you love freedom is like raping for virginity. You can't claim to support American values while you desecrate the emblem of them.

Frankly, I don't care what your definition of 'real American' is. I've learned a long time ago that you will always piss someone off. I'm un-American to the right because I'm pro-Palestinian, and I'm un-American to the left for your reasons.

Moral behavior is acting in accordance with your conscience and your values. Mine tell me to honor my country and her symbols. I will interpose myself to protect them if needed, and if I am threatened in the process I will defend myself with any force required.

So, anyone I haven't offended yet?

 

[Vanyel]

Including wanting to illegally bludgeon teenagers with the butt of your rifle over vandalism. You're a real hero.

There's nothing illegal about self defense against a mob. The fact that I'm standing between them and their goal doesn't mean I can't defend myself.

So its perfectly legal, don't get your panties in a twist. I bet it would really freak you out if they went onto my property to steal a flag, then I'd pull out my functional rifles.

Does any one here know if what he's saying would hold in court? As I see it he, and his fellow AFROTC, would have to deliberately put themselves in harm's way. They wouldn't be defending anyone's life but their own, in a situation they put themselves in; and if the crowd showed no violence, other than wanting to bring down the flag, wouldn't that negate self defense? Also if the property damage is limited to a flag, a flag not his, but the property of the school be enough to add weight to the self defense argument?

 

[Subcommander R.]

Does any one here know if what he's saying would hold in court? As I see it he, and his fellow AFROTC, would have to deliberately put themselves in harm's way. They wouldn't be defending anyone's life but their own, in a situation they put themselves in; and if the crowd showed no violence, other than wanting to bring down the flag, wouldn't that negate self defense? Also if the property damage is limited to a flag, a flag not his, but the property of the school be enough to add weight to the self defense argument?

I'd simply be not moving in a passive sense. If they wanted to be peaceful they'd turn around and leave. If they wanted to continue their... effort... they'd have to cause violence.

Its perfectly justified as they would necessarily have to use violence to reach the flag. I wouldn't be making the decision for them.

 

[Vanyel]

Does any one here know if what he's saying would hold in court? As I see it he, and his fellow AFROTC, would have to deliberately put themselves in harm's way. They wouldn't be defending anyone's life but their own, in a situation they put themselves in; and if the crowd showed no violence, other than wanting to bring down the flag, wouldn't that negate self defense? Also if the property damage is limited to a flag, a flag not his, but the property of the school be enough to add weight to the self defense argument?

I'd simply be not moving in a passive sense. If they wanted to be peaceful they'd turn around and leave. If they wanted to continue their... effort... they'd have to cause violence.

Its perfectly justified as they would necessarily have to use violence to reach the flag. I wouldn't be making the decision for them.

If you're not moving and one ducks under or around you, what then? They've committed no act of aggression, they by passed you. They don't have to touch you to get around you. I can think of ways around your defense, ways that are not violent and would cause you to have to react. What then?

 

[sidious618]

Burning the symbol of freedom to show how much you love freedom is like raping for virginity.

Not really. You see, when you burn a flag you're just burning a piece of cloth. When you rape someone you're penetrating their body without their permission. It's easy to see how you might get the two confused because it's essentially a po-teh-toe po-tah-toe situation, right?

 

[Thestral]

it can be, it can also be used in an insulting or sarcastic manner and in this instance the poster probably intended it to be the latter.

Yes, but it depends on the context. In this context it comes off sarcastic and condescending, like you're more civil and above it all because you discuss things in the tone of a 19th century debate instead of just talking like a normal modern person having a conversation over the internet instead of sending messages back and forth on a telegraph. Might as well just type STOP after every sentence too.

More or less. It's usually reserved for figures of respect and authority (officers, teachers, elders, etc.) or by a salesperson to a customer. But that's not the point. I don't object in principle: actually, I don't care at all. But when it's used to convey a false sense of respect or politeness, or to pretend you are above the discussion, at least people should use the correct form, or no form at all. Ultimately, I would prefer to have a mature discussion, but if someone wants to play, I feel free to jump in the game.

Right, ok, that all makes sense. Just wondering if this was another American/European thing again since I used "sir" all the time with customers. Carry on with the gamesmanship.

Borg, not Dalek.

We definitively need a Dalek smiley.

As always, "The Iguana speaks both truth and wisdom."

Thanks for the one provided, Goliath!

 

[Trekker4747]

/QUOTE]

Burning the symbol of freedom to show how much you love freedom is like raping for virginity. You can't claim to support American values while you desecrate the emblem of them.

Silly rationalization, sort of like asking if God can nuke a burrito so hot even He cannot eat it.

Part of being free is being free enough to criticize what's made you free. Because if you're not free enough to that then freedom isn't worth much. The Flag isn't necessarily just a symbol for freedom it's a symbol for America and what America does and stands for. And if you feel what America is currently standing for isn't right then burning a flag symbolizes that. That America is doing something that's in opposition of what it stands for. (This, of course, applies to any "domestic" instances of flag-burning. Foreign flag burning is more about hate.)

Burning a flag isn't saying you "hate freedom" its saying that you hate what America is doing in the "name of freedom." Flag burning during wars, for example. Makes sense when you oppose the war because you see your country doing something you think goes against its values and principles so the flag as a symbol is meaningless since the principles it stands for are, apparently according to the war, not important.

Burning the flag isn't about hating freedom or doing "because" of freedom. It's strong symbol that you think what America is doing is wrong. So next time you see a man burning a flag rather than yelling at him, saying he hates America or trying to stop his freedom of doing so; why not ask him what he thinks America is doing wrong to make the flag's symbol null.

Many Americans want to react from the gut and emotions without thinking and discussing. So we see someone burning a flag, a group of people wanting to build a community center, or things like that and we get angry and think it's against America. Rather than, you know, discussing things and finding out what the real story is.

Don't get angry at the man burning a flag or protesting an Army recruitment center or things like that. Instead, try and find out why he's doing it. You might learn something.

 

[Thestral]

Of course there is, NFL Football the greatest sport of all time.

Preach it!

Burning the symbol of freedom to show how much you love freedom is like raping for virginity.

The hell?

 

[Davros]

We remember everyone who fought and died for that same flag.

Our troops fought and died to protect our Constitution and the rights protected therein. One of which includes our right to burn or fly that or any other flag as we see fit.

On your own property its your own business. But you can't run around in public setting things on fire. Its a safety risk and menace.

I guess they should remove those grills from the National Park campgrounds then since you don't think people are capable of controlling something we discovered in prehistory.

 

[Subcommander R.]

If you're not moving and one ducks under or around you, what then? They've committed no act of aggression, they by passed you. They don't have to touch you to get around you. I can think of ways around your defense, ways that are not violent and would cause you to have to react. What then?

Then I use the minimum amount of effort required to prevent them from removing the flag. Ideally the mere presence of opposition will stop the mob.

Not really. You see, when you burn a flag you're just burning a piece of cloth. When you rape someone you're penetrating their body without their permission. It's easy to see how you might get the two confused because it's essentially a po-teh-toe po-tah-toe situation, right?

Its an analogy, it doesn't have to be exactly correct. The point is that you can't defile something in the name of it. When was the last time you saw some guy torch an American flag while yelling "I love America!"?

I guess they should remove those grills from the National Park campgrounds then since you don't think people are capable of controlling something we discovered in prehistory.

Don't be a smartass. You know the difference between cooking and waving around a flaming object in the streets.

Silly rationalization, sort of like asking if God can nuke a burrito so hot even He cannot eat it.

Part of being free is being free enough to criticize what's made you free. Because if you're not free enough to that then freedom isn't worth much. The Flag isn't necessarily just a symbol for freedom it's a symbol for America and what America does and stands for. And if you feel what America is currently standing for isn't right then burning a flag symbolizes that. That America is doing something that's in opposition of what it stands for. (This, of course, applies to any "domestic" instances of flag-burning. Foreign flag burning is more about hate.)

Burning a flag isn't saying you "hate freedom" its saying that you hate what America is doing in the "name of freedom." Flag burning during wars, for example. Makes sense when you oppose the war because you see your country doing something you think goes against its values and principles so the flag as a symbol is meaningless since the principles it stands for are, apparently according to the war, not important.

Burning the flag isn't about hating freedom or doing "because" of freedom. It's strong symbol that you think what America is doing is wrong. So next time you see a man burning a flag rather than yelling at him, saying he hates America or trying to stop his freedom of doing so; why not ask him what he thinks America is doing wrong to make the flag's symbol null.

Many Americans want to react from the gut and emotions without thinking and discussing. So we see someone burning a flag, a group of people wanting to build a community center, or things like that and we get angry and think it's against America. Rather than, you know, discussing things and finding out what the real story is.

Don't get angry at the man burning a flag or protesting an Army recruitment center or things like that. Instead, try and find out why he's doing it. You might learn something.

Tell the jerkwad burning the flag that no one will listen to him when he does something like that. Its like shouting down guest speakers. Its not about the issue, its about disrupting things.

And to burn the flag isn't to say 'I disagree with certain national policies' it says 'I show no respect for my country.' Its just like the Westboro Baptists.

 

[Subcommander R.]

On a related note, I don't think I'll have the time to follow up on all this in the next few days. So don't expect any responses. If you want them, message me. If its rhetorical there's sense in it.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Of course it is. Flag burning is only a problem for people who don't believe in American values. I was responding to your statement that it never happens; it actually does happen, and happened quite frequently in the 60s.


Fortunately, you don't speak for real Americans, just for an extremist sect who prefers the idolatry of symbols to genuine morality. But it's good to know that you won't round up people and kill them for their race-- just beat them to death for desecrating your holy icons.

Burning the symbol of freedom to show how much you love freedom is like raping for virginity. You can't claim to support American values while you desecrate the emblem of them.

Clearly you have no understanding of either American values or symbolism. Or Spamming, for that matter. No more than two posts in a row, please.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Including wanting to illegally bludgeon teenagers with the butt of your rifle over vandalism. You're a real hero.

There's nothing illegal about self defense against a mob. The fact that I'm standing between them and their goal doesn't mean I can't defend myself.

So its perfectly legal, don't get your panties in a twist.

Your group is as much a mob as theirs is. I love how you seem to think being in AFJROTC gives you some kind of legal authority to break out weapons and use them on people who haven't actually committed a crime yet, and who even if they did, would constitute a misdemeanor. You're like Neidermeyer from 'Animal House.'

It's not self-defense when you do not own the piece of land or the flag, when you deliberately insert yourself into the middle of the situation, and you are the one holding a deadly weapon to threaten/bludgeon/possibly kill or cause brain damage to teenagers. You're the one escalating the situation every step of the way. You're the one exceeding your non-existent authority, taking the law into your own hands, and going way beyond the boundaries of what's permissible in even a citizen's arrest. Police don't look too kindly on vigilantes who attack teenagers over vandalism they never even got a chance to cause because they were beaten first.

I bet it would really freak you out if they went onto my property to steal a flag, then I'd pull out my functional rifles.

I make no apologies for thinking it's insane and immoral to ponder shooting anyone over stealing a mass-produced piece of cloth. Again, you're elevating the object over what it represents. What it represents can't be stolen or destroyed along with the piece of cloth.

It can be destroyed when people who idolize the flag while having no clue about what it represents pass laws which give protecting the object a higher priority than protecting our freedom of speech and expression.

 

[iguana_tonante]

So, anyone I haven't offended yet?

I'm not offended by your position. I think your position is dangerous and illiberal.

 

[1001001]

Burning the symbol of freedom to show how much you love freedom is like raping for virginity.

So ultimately, freedom of speech only covers speech you approve of? That's not anywhere close to the meaning or spirit of the first amendment. Popular speech doesn't need protection. I believe the founding fathers specifically wanted to protect dissenting opinions.

And seriously, that was the worst simile I've ever read.

You can't claim to support American values while you desecrate the emblem of them.

You can't claim to support "American values" while physically attacking people in the process of exercising free speech (no matter how stupid or inappropriate it may be). If it's not physically, immediately dangerous (the old yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater), just move along.