In some circles in the USA, "illiberal" is a compliment.
13-year old not allowed to fly American flag at school.
- Thread starter Tiberius Jim
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In some circles in the USA, "illiberal" is a compliment.
Illiberal as in hates freedom. Then they'll hate it.
Uh... there's one slight problem with making a Constitutional Amendment to make the outright burning of a US flag illegal. There is this little thing called the United States Flag Code which is a set of rules for how to properly care for and display the US flag. There is even a rule on how to properly despose of a flag.
You can't ban the burning of the US flag because that's what you're suppose to do with a worn out US flag.
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Boo-hoo!
It's the only kind of ass I know how to be.
You are the one suggesting no burning anything in public. Maybe you should think about your posts before you make them. However I should point out that a small piece of cloth burning on some cement or asphalt isn't really much of a hazard.
Yes, but they feel the same about "Illinois" and "Illimani", so they don't count.
Try grabbing a cardboard box, standing in the middle of a crowded street and lighting it on fire. Then wave it around. I guarantee the police and/or fire department will show up.
You know there's a difference. Be smarmy if it makes you feel better.
As for the rest of you:
Free speech doesn't extend to the destruction of public property. I have no problem using force when there is no alternative. I will never allow the American flag to be ripped down and replaced by that of another country when I am in a position to stop it. Whatever consequences might arise from doing the honorable thing are bearable. I would rather face them than stand idly by.
Now stop mischaracterizing me. I never said I want to use violence. I said I would be ready to if there was no alternative. I also NEVER said I would take any offensive action. There is a massive difference that none of you seemed to notice.
I don't need your approval, but I would like it if you stopped being so damn condescending, and it would also be nice if you paid attention to what I was actually saying. Turn off your political ideology filter and read the words rather than your opinion.
Additionally:
I have no complaints against free speech. But free speech doesn't include mobs setting things on fire in the streets.
If you want to be a treasonous bastard and disgrace my country on your private property, that is your right. But when in public spaces you cannot behave that way.
There are limits to freedom of expression, regardless of what some of you might think. Incitement, hazards to safety, and other such things are not permissible.
Your rights end where another's begin. The only exception is illegal activity. If someone violates the law, they violate their rights. Thats why felons can't vote or own firearms.
Now, with all that said its clear this is far removed from the original topic of conversation. Instead of playing the 'let's all rally around our mutual contempt for a single dissenting opinion" how about we get back to the actual matter at hand?
There is an alternative. Not using it. It's a flag, for crying out loud.
Grabbing a rifle and going to stand in someone's way with the intend of hitting them with said rifle is offensive action.
Actually, you can. Free speech applies just as much in public. In fact, arguably more so as you don't have to respect it on private property if you don't want to.
And, of course, burning a flag is not treason and not necessarily a disgrace.
Yeah, I would not be willing to resort to violence or potentially lay down my life in defense of a flag. That's just me. Symbols are symbols, they're not life-and-death.
But as the supreme court has ruled, Burning flags is protected freee speech. That's why you need a constitutional amendment to ban it.
It is silencing free speech which is treasonous, not exercizing it.
None of that has anything to do with flag burning. Fourth Of July fireworks displays are more of a danger.
Again, none of this has anything to do with flag burning unless they take your flag and burn it without your consent. If they want to burn their own flag, it is theirs to do with as they see fit.
"I'm swelling with patriotic mucus!"
It's not like the Mexican Army was invading or anything.
I think you may have watched Red Dawn one too many times....
Take a deep breath. It's just a flag. Save your energy and your righteous indignation for something.....real. 100,000 US Veterans sleep on the streets of America every night.
Start there.
Agreed. My father fought in three wars for his country, not for colorful fabric.
Except you fail to understand the point of the rifle. The rifle is to defend the safety of those forming the barrier. Only a fool stands in front of an angry mob with no means of defense.
And, as I said, there are exceptions to free speech in public places. Notably incitement and arson.
And I presumed that 'private property' would be taken in the sense of 'your own property.' If you try it on someone else's property you will likely wind up with a shotgun pointed at you or in the back seat of a squad car.
Treason is giving aid or comfort to enemies of the United States. By torching our flag and showing the contempt you hold for your country you are indeed comforting them.
Obviously on today's society we can't punish you for that. Hell, even the ones who go to Afghanistan and kill American soldiers won't be executed.
Perhaps. Which is why they should only be performed when officially sanctioned and monitored by the government. Its controlled by local ordinances.
You simply can't run around in public lighting things on fire. This is common sense.
Actually in case you hadn't noticed, the Mexican army has crossed the border dozens of times in the past few years and held the Border Patrol at gunpoint. They claim its navigation errors, but they're just tying us down so the cartels can drive huge loads of drugs through with impunity.
Red Dawn was a pretty lousy movie if you ask me.
Do you realize that the two causes aren't exclusive? Its a red herring on your part by setting up a false dichotomy. No one was discussing the plight of veterans in this thread, the mere fact that something else is being discussed doesn't mean I have no other passions.
We need to respect our national symbol and our vets. And frequently when one is disrespected the other is as well. Take a good look at the Vietnam War for proof. My great-uncle came back from two tours only to be spat on and called 'baby-killer' by the people who would burn our flag while proudly waving that of North Vietnam.
I now treachery when I see it.
And diminishing the rights of Americans does exactly that.
No it doesn't. It calls attention to policies of our nation that are against the ideals it is founded on.
Defending one's country against a foreign occupation isn't a crime.
Free speech is always not just when the local authorities say it's ok.
That's not what flag burners are doing.
But you can do that if you want to.
They have a long way to go then to equal what we have done to them. Hell, we even invaded them and took 2/3s of their country away from them.
The quickest cure for that problem is legalizing marijuana not stepping on the rights of Americans.
Just remember that it's a comedy.
Respect not worship.
Sure they did.Holding America and it's policies up to criticism isnt treachery.
And diminishing the rights of Americans does exactly that.
No it doesn't. It calls attention to policies of our nation that are against the ideals it is founded on.
Defending one's country against a foreign occupation isn't a crime.
Free speech is always not just when the local authorities say it's ok.
That's not what flag burners are doing.
But you can do that if you want to.
They have a long way to go then to equal what we have done to them. Hell, we even invaded them and took 2/3s of their country away from them.
The quickest cure for that problem is legalizing marijuana not stepping on the rights of Americans.
Just remember that it's a comedy.
Respect not worship.
Holding America and it's policies up to criticism isnt treachery.
1. Its not diminishing any rights, its using common sense in the view of our system.
2. Thats bull. Torching your nation's flag isn't affirming what it stands for, its showing your contempt for what it signifies.
3. And you want to call me a wackjob? Sure, because Al Qaeda setting off a car bomb in a Baghdad marketplace and killing sixty innocent civilians is really 'defending your country.' I'm sure the Afghan people completely understand when the Taliban comes into town and kills the police.
Even if your premise for the situation were correct, American citizens do not have a right to fight for any enemy. That is high treason.
4. That statement made no sense. I suggest you rephrase or explain of you want a response.
5. Really? Last time I checked they were going into public spaces with a lighter and setting something on fire.
6. No, I can't. That would be against common sense.
7. So because you suffer white guilt you like the idea of letting hundreds of tons of narcotics stream into the US? And of having our own soil violated? Thats absurd.
8. Legalize pot? lol. I should have known the most common leftist cause would emerge.
9. Agreed on something. Finally.
10. Respect would entail not setting it on fire. And also, imo, not wearing the flag as a pair of pants. Thats not patriotic, its tacky and disrespectful.
11. NVA Flaghttp://www.worldofstock.com/slides/VIN1361.jpg
Now don't even pretend they didn't spit on soldiers.
12. Treachery is self-evident, and denouncing your nation like that is.
So to recap, your points were terrorists good, soldiers bad, treason good, disrespect good, government bad, mexicans good, drugs good, common sense bad.
Actually, no, burning a symbol of the nation is part of our heritage and free speech rights. Think about it, when we were subjects of the crown, we burned effigies of King George (and Colonial governors appointed by the crown). When we were free, we created the first amendment to ensure that the state could not prevent this type of protest. In other words, we didn't want to become what we despised. Burning the flag is no different than burning an effigy both for the symbol of our nation argument and for the public safety argument.
Now it can be unsafe, but that's something to be judged based on the context, not generally.
Now it can be unsafe, but that's something to be judged based on the context, not generally.
Oh R., where have you been all this time?
Nope. Sure doesn't. Burning a flag doesn't seem to apply here.
This.
And this disagree with one another. If you see someone burning a flag on a concrete plaza what are you doing to do to stop them? Because the aggressive nature of your posts suggests you wouldn't be the type to stroll up to him and nicely ask him to stop because you find it offensive and it's a possible safety hazard.
The Kettle is texting you a message. Check your eMail/Facebook feed or cellphone. Whichever is applicable.
Additionally:
I have no complaints against free speech. But free speech doesn't include mobs setting things on fire in the streets.
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It sort of does. The fire department might have something to say about it but I'm assuming they take other factors into consideration and even then only hand out a fine.
Not going to be the aggressor, huh?
People have the right to protest however they see fit so long as no one is causing harm. Considering I've never heard of flag-burning going on during dry conditions on an open field of hay and starter charcoal briquettes and more often see people do it on sidewalks and streets I'm guessing setting fire to the flag as a symbol of something presents little risk to anyone.
When in a public space people can behave however they want. That's sort of what Freedom means. If they're not causing you any direct harm then you're in little position to say what they can and cannot do.
There are no limits to free speech. There are limits to the consequences of it. You can't be arrested for libel or slander, you can be sued for it. You can't be arrested for yelling 'fire!" in a crowded room. You CAN be arrested for creating a riot.
And burning a flag harms your rights in no way shape or form.
People can express themselves however they want. If it causes no harm. Burning a flag may offend you but you'd be jumping to conclusions based on nothing to say that person is a "treasonous bastard" for doing so. It also poses no danger to you unless the person burning it is doing it in w reckless manner. Most flag-burning demonstrations I've seen in the media don't seem reckless and is mostly limited to people burning a flag while holding it in the air or watching it burn on the ground while on the street/sidewalk. People starting campfires in Yellowstone present a bigger fire risk.
I'm unclear given your posts so far but let me say that if you served our country I am grateful. You did a brave thing many people cannot do and choose not to do. Thank you.
But if you're so upset when you see people burning a flag for political reasons maybe you should ask yourself what you were fighting for. Were you fighting for a piece of cloth? Or for people to be free enough to show this disrespect? If the local municipality has a problem with the fire let them take care of it. But people should be free to express themselves however they want and the best way to show that we respect the right for people to have freedom of Speech and Expression is to let them do it when we disagree with then. "I disagree with what you say, but I fight for your right to say it" being the idiom.
Ask your self, and maybe them, why they're so upset with this country that they'd make such a drastic statement. Because that's what burning the flag is, it's a statement not of hate for the country itself but for the actions the country is currently taking.
Also try and to remember that the flag is just a piece of cloth, or paper, or other material and it's not the nation, it's not a person and it's not a building. Burning the flag is simply a gesture of anger towards what the flag stands for. If that person is so angry they must have a reason. But be glad that you are happy and free and live in a great country and that, hey, that person is free enough to be able to show his disrespect. That symbol is far more powerful that the flag burning itself.
How in the hell is restricting my free speech not diminishing my rights?
Yes it is.
You mentioned shooting our troops in Afganistan , not the killing of innocent civilians. These are not the same thing.
If a foriegn country invaded the US it would not be treason to resist those invaders.
It makes perfect sense.
You are phrasing it very simplisticly and ignoring the mesage they are trying to send.
Yes you can.
No, I just am honest about our history and have a sense of perspective.
If you want to stop drugs being brought over our border the easiest way is to eliminate their ability to compete in the market. Since medicam Marijuana passed here and legalization in the city of Denver, we no longer get our pot from Mexico. We grow it here and boost our own economic growth.
See I'm not all bad.
When the country that flag represents has policies which run against the ideals that country is based on, burning that flag to draw attention to those policies is fully justified.
They don't like hotlinking, but waving foreign flags isn't against any law nor should it be. If it were some good old boys down south would be in trouble as well.
I don't have to pretend since it never happened.
Honest criticism isn't treachery.
Did you even read anything I posted?
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