ST-One
Vice Admiral
I hate these loud-mouthed, drunken idiots who wander the streets before and after a game of their sport of choice 'singing' (and that's really stretching the meaning of the word) and chanting.
13-year old not allowed to fly American flag at school.
- Thread starter Tiberius Jim
- Start date
I hate these loud-mouthed, drunken idiots who wander the streets before and after a game of their sport of choice 'singing' (and that's really stretching the meaning of the word) and chanting.
^ What about during the game?
ST-One
Vice Admiral
C'mon dude, of course you're equating to Nazism, and not just "a bit."
Yes, I guess you are right.
There is something wrong about it all, to me.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Except for World Cup football, I don't watch any kind of sport.
This sums it all up very well. Essentially people are trolling themselves into these broader, more incendiary concerns. The bikers trolled themselves, because this is what they're looking to get off on.
A lot of people are trolled into talking about patriotism vs. nationalism, free speech, etc., not realizing that this incident has little or nothing to do with any of that. You have to focus down to the level of the microcosm of the school environment - a very undemocratic, institutionalized building full of pubescent children, the safety of which the school is responsible for some 35+ hours/week. This can lead to some arbitrary and wrong situations, but it is not the battleground for all that is good and right and white in this world. It was just an admittedly bad decision.
Then you are an enemy of freedom.
Yes, of course, nationalism is wrong. Do you seriously disagree with that? How can thinking yourself superior to someone else only due to where you were born ever be right?
If you had read my post more closely, you would have noted that I said that no one in this thread has called what the boy did offensive nationalism (because it isn't), which was what Rush seemed to imply. Apparently, he just went on a rant only very slightly related to the topic at hand without telling us but I thought he was commenting on it.
And how can saying that there probably is more to the topic be wrong when the school actually hinted at that in its statement? Rush's rant implied certain motives for the school's action which aren't really in evidence from the few facts we know about this. So I pointed that out.
The national anthem is hardly ever played at sports events here.
IIRC, the raised-arm salute was popular long before Fascism or Nazism because it was seen (wrongly) as being originally Roman.
The Italian Fascists used it because to them, 'Roman' meant 'Imperial Roman.' The French revolutionaries, by contrast, used it because to them, 'Roman' meant 'republican.'
Apparently, it was David's Oath of the Horatii which encouraged this perception:
And later, his picture of the Tennis Court Oath:
In each of these cases, the gesture is associated with oath-swearing and pledge-taking, rather than as a salute. I've also seen evidence that it was used in this way under Napoleon as well:
I assume that Bellamy had this sort of thing in mind. It's interesting to note that, in the United States, the fasces is used as a symbol for this reason as well, despite its association with Fascism--on the seal of the United States Senate, for example.
The difference, of course, is that the raised-arm salute was adopted by the Nazis, while the fasces was not.
Yes, of course, nationalism is wrong. Do you seriously disagree with that? How can thinking yourself superior to someone else only due to where you were born ever be right?
If you had read my post more closely, you would have noted that I said that no one in this thread has called what the boy did offensive nationalism (because it isn't), which was what Rush seemed to imply. Apparently, he just went on a rant only very slightly related to the topic at hand without telling us but I thought he was commenting on it.
And how can saying that there probably is more to the topic be wrong when the school actually hinted at that in its statement? Rush's rant implied certain motives for the school's action which aren't really in evidence from the few facts we know about this. So I pointed that out.
The national anthem is hardly ever played at sports events here.
Nationalism doesn't usually mean 'I am superior to you' it means 'I am proud of my nation and like it best.'
And it also refers to national movements, which I think we can agree rightly shaped Europe and the Americas. The Middle East and Africa are dysfunctional largely because they have arbitrary colonial divisions.
It should be banned on a lower level. Publicly setting fires should be considered arson and when politically motivated to cause fear or anger it is incitement or menacing.
No burning anything in public.
I'd say that is commonly understood to be patriotism. Nationalism usually is rather exclusive concerning groups that don't fit the formula of national identity that's being promoted.
I don't think Sector 7 was using the word to mean that. Regardless, Europe only became functional after a lot of ethnic cleansing had taken place. So I'd say nationalist movements are a good thing.
Thank you. I realize that, as a German, you have understandably fused the concepts of nationalism and patriotism with racism, jingoism, and xenophobia. But elsewhere in the world, we value our national symbols.
We remember everyone who fought and died for that same flag. We haven't had a revolving door of governments in the US like you have in Europe. We've had a single nation in a single incarnation. And we would do whatever we need to protect it.
That doesn't mean we're going to round people up and kill them because of their race. Americans are not any one race, religion, or political ideology.
Patriotism is passively supportive, nationalism is actively supporting your country.
Including wanting to illegally bludgeon teenagers with the butt of your rifle over vandalism. You're a real hero.
Ok, you have your own definition of the term, it seems. I was using the word the way it's usually used. But maybe that explains Sector 7's reaction though. He might have a similar notion about nationalism as you do.
So no grilling burgers and brats in the park?
Which is funny given that many would support a flag burning ammendment are the same who get out there an want to burn books they disagree with and I'm pretty sure they'll be mightly pissed if they can't burn the Koran, the King James Bible or the latest Harry Potter.
But hey as long as you apply it to the book burner, the flag burners and everyone else in between then fairer than just banning on side.
Is there any other kind of sport?
Isn't it nice to invent your own meaning for words?
Our troops fought and died to protect our Constitution and the rights protected therein. One of which includes our right to burn or fly that or any other flag as we see fit.
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