12 Monkeys..tv show

[JD]

Wow, I expected The Witness to be a time traveler, but I didn't even think of it being Ramse, even after last weeks. I like it when shows do episodes like this and show us stuff we already saw from a different perspective.
So I wonder if Cole really is stuck in 2015 if the means this is the last we've seen of the people in 2043?
So I wonder if the 12 Monkey's hideout where they put the medallions side by side is the Red Forest, or if there's a forest out there somewhere that was similarly effected?

 

[SiddFinch1]

Some interesting developments...looking forward to next week...the finale

 

[JD]

I can't wait to see how the season ends.
I was kind of surprised we actually continued to get 2043 stuff after Cole got stuck in the present.
I got a kick out of seeing kid Cole, and meeting his dad.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

I'm really wondering who those blue-skinned dudes in 2043 are. Aliens?

 

[Guy Gardener]

They could be from the future, or they could be what happens to a person after they eat red weed for 40 years.

Red weed is Martian?

 

[Christopher]

I'm really wondering who those blue-skinned dudes in 2043 are. Aliens?

They look more gray-skinned to me, and they're probably some kind of cult wearing face paint. And it looked like there might have been around, ohh, twelve of them...? Who's been the driving, invisible faction behind this whole thing, yet has not actually been seen yet? (Hint: Check the title.)

 

[dansigal]

I was kind of surprised we actually continued to get 2043 stuff after Cole got stuck in the present.

Yeah, it's kinda silly. The one time travel thing I absolutely HATE is the idea that time is passing at the same rate for people in 2043 as it is in 2015! I think maybe that could have worked while he was going back and forth, because he had that link to 2043, so maybe the argument is that they could only bring back the same exact Cole they sent, they couldn't go into any part of time to grab him.

But, once Cole has been sent back from 2043 to 2015 permanently (assuming that's the case), from the perspective of 2043 everything he does in 2015 from here on out HAS ALREADY HAPPENED! Therefore, if 2043 still exists than he's failed to change the future, and never will. If he ultimately succeeded 2043 should have ceased to exist the moment he was sent to 2015.

 

[JD]

I'm really wondering who those blue-skinned dudes in 2043 are. Aliens?

They look more gray-skinned to me, and they're probably some kind of cult wearing face paint. And it looked like there might have been around, ohh, twelve of them...? Who's been the driving, invisible faction behind this whole thing, yet has not actually been seen yet? (Hint: Check the title.)

Interesting idea. I had just been assuming The Army of the 12 Monkeys was just a name, and that there were no literal or figurative"12 Monkeys".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Olivia said the rise of the 12, or the coming of the 12 last week.

The 12 could have a support staff that's been working in parallel, invisibly unknown to the monkeys themselves, to assure the 12 monkey's origin since the 80s, if that isn't who Olivia's group really is.

Cole's mum was obsessed by them, Cole's dad said.

 

[Christopher]

Interesting idea. I had just been assuming The Army of the 12 Monkeys was just a name, and that there were no literal or figurative"12 Monkeys".

Maybe there weren't to start with, but this is a post-apocalyptic future. So it could be that the heirs or acolytes of the original "Army" have turned it into more of a weird cult thing, and its leaders have styled themselves as "the 12 Monkeys."

Anyway, we'll see soon enough.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Ramses isn't ageing, then they could still be the original 12 Monkeys.

 

[Tom]

Speaking of aging, I'm impressed by how they de-aged Barbara Sukowa (Dr. Jones), the actress is 65 years old and they made he look like she was in her 30's.

 

[Christopher]

Speaking of aging, I'm impressed by how they de-aged Barbara Sukowa (Dr. Jones), the actress is 65 years old and they made he look like she was in her 30's.

Mainly by putting her in a turtleneck and a big wig to hide her wrinkles.

However, there was a line early on about how Jones was researching a medical technique that would make people immune to the ravages of time. And Ramse didn't seem to age between 1987 and 2015. I think they're hinting that Jones will invent a successful anti-aging treatment sometime in the future, as a way to avoid using age makeup or recasting actors when they jump between decades.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Speaking of aging, I'm impressed by how they de-aged Barbara Sukowa (Dr. Jones), the actress is 65 years old and they made he look like she was in her 30's.

Was that really her? Because i thought it was a different actress, but dubbing the voice of Sukowa. (Which is an interesting name -- just like Jones, a different ethnicity than her!)

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was most definitely her.

But with her hair washed, and a bit of make up.

 

[Tom]

Good season finale. So is Cassie going to be the time traveler now I wonder. Also the 12 babies are the guys with blue faces in the future?

 

[dansigal]

Good season finale. So is Cassie going to be the time traveler now I wonder. Also the 12 babies are the guys with blue faces in the future?

Can't say for sure, but that seemed to be the implication. I was happy with the finale. Fate as an inevitable, is something that I find completely dull as a story telling device. I really thought that's where they were going, until that final scene, when Olivia says that history will record Ramsey found dead that day, followed by Cole's change of heart, and decision to go get him.

 

[Christopher]

I was happy with the finale. Fate as an inevitable, is something that I find completely dull as a story telling device. I really thought that's where they were going, until that final scene, when Olivia says that history will record Ramsey found dead that day, followed by Cole's change of heart, and decision to go get him.

Well, all that proves is that history may have recorded things wrongly. History is wrong about stuff all the time. So that doesn't prove that events can be changed, just that they can be misreported. It's still ambiguous.

After all, it doesn't really make any sense. After all the great lengths Cole and Jones have gone to in order to try to change history without success, Cole suddenly manages to change it just by stopping in a corridor and changing his mind? I mean, why wouldn't he have gone back for Ramsey the "first" time around? If he was "always" part of those events, then presumably whatever we saw him doing was what he "always" did, since there was no external temporal intervention to change it.

So I think this just proves that the Witness's knowledge is fallible. Or that "Ethan Seki"'s death was faked for some reason. And why not? Ramse's unaging. He'd have to periodically fake his death and reinvent his identity anyway. And since he was planning to leave our time as it was, presumably he already put "Seki"'s affairs in order. Since he stayed, he'd need to start a new life anyway.


I have mixed feelings about the finale. On the one hand, it seemed to wrap up the whole looming Cole/Ramse confrontation a bit too easily. On the other hand, I'm glad it didn't come to some big revenge finale, that their friendship still endured and made them want to resolve things. And it was very moving that Jose gave up his injection to save Cassie. That proves he's still a good man at heart.

 

[JD]

I thought this was a pretty great finale. I thought it was pretty great that they sent Cassie into the future. I'm glad that Cole saved Ramse, it'll be interesting to see what their relationship turns into now.
I'm curious how The Striking Woman (aka Olivia) knew that Ramse was supposed to die.
I'm interested to learn more about The 12.
IGN has an interview with Travis Fickett about the finale and also gives a few hints about what to expect in Season 2.
A few interesting bits from the interview:
The Twelve are actually white skinned not blue. It was just the light from the machine that made them look blue in some scenes. They are not all male.
He makes of point of saying we did not see Aaron die, so it sounds like we might not have seen the last of him.
Ramse is not The Witness.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When Olivia said "The Witness has Spoken" at the end of a sentence near the end, that's pretentiouseese for "I am the Witness".

Make sure it is ready.
You're certain of all this? The Witness has spoken.
But what of Jose Ramse? (woman) On this day, November 11th of 2015, history will show that Ethan Seki will be found dead beside the accelerator he helped finance.
His circle will come to an end.
And James Cole? James Cole will flee into obscurity, his future unknown to us.
All of this is preordained, scripted by time, unmovable, because there is nothing more powerful than fate.

Her tenses are screwy because Olivia is talking about future knowledge.

She had thunk that Cole died.