10 reasons why TOS is better than TNG

[Hartzilla2007]

To be a successful ensemble

7 seasons of being the most highly rated Trek series, to be specific. Yeah, it was non-stop fail...

And yet they needed Kirk to show up to get their film series going which crapped out after 3 and 1/2 films while TOS is a 7 and 1/2 and counting.

Plus I dare you to go out to some random guy on the street and ask him which characters he associates with Star Trek.

And the TNG movies were made more or less on the cheap compared to NuTrek. It's not just how much comes back, it's also how much went it.

And Bablyon 5 was made cheaper than Voyager and is still liked more than it.

And TMP had more money put into it that TWOK and yet TWOK is still liked more.

Budget and Sfxs will only get you so far if you don't have a good story and only First Contact had a good story.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

And Bablyon 5 was made cheaper than Voyager and is still liked more than it.

By a relatively small number of dedicated fans, perhaps. Voyager remains vastly better known and was watched by millions more viewers than B5.

 

[Ssosmcin]

What I see here are a lot of people dismissing TOS based on things that were "of its time." Honestly, you can't judge a show with the social standards 45 years after the fact. Yes, it was chauvinistic. Yes, the effects were primitive, yes the acting was more stylized, yes everything was awash in bright colors. So what? Look what it did: it presented science fiction to the masses in an adult fashion. It didn't aim for the 5 year olds. Instead it tried to reach audiences by having respect for their intelligence. At a time when sci-fi on TV was considered kid's stuff, Star Trek aimed higher and still had fun doing it. Was it a good show? That is a stupid question - time and society have already judged Star Trek and its value. You don't have to like a show to admit that it's good. I hate I Love Lucy, but I respect it and its quality. It just wasn't my thing.

I find it hard to understand why so many people just can't or won't watch a show in context of its time. You cannot judge classic Trek by today's standards. To truly appreciate it, you have to set your mind on "60's" and just watch. You don't have to like it, but shutting it out because it's "outdated" is narrow minded. Twilight Zone and The Fugitive don't get this kind of grief and they are both very much of their time. You can't judge TOS for not having "Story arcs." That just wasn't what they did in the 1960's. Every episode (unless it was a two-parter) was self contained and resolved at the end of the hour. Star Trek was FAR from the only series like this. Every show was, unless it was a soap.

TNG was also an excellent show. Once it became what it had to be (its own show, not dependant on TOS), it was amazing, The middle few seasons were incredibly good television (the third season alone had, by my standards, a 99% success rate). It doesn't matter that the feel good 80's put Troi on the bridge, or that many of the effects fell flat (model effects were too expensive and CGI wasn't all that good yet so they didn't use it). It told good stories, had good characters and actors, and expanded the Star Trek universe in very important ways.

There are a lot of stupid episodes in every Trek series. Both TOS and TNG were brilliant. Was one better than the other? I don't think so, they both did a lot for SF TV and beyond. There are the two best Trek series made. Which one you prefer is your own choice. But you don't have to insult one to love the other.

Why are TOS fans so defensive? It wasn't a TNG fan that started this divisive shitfest of a thread.

Be careful not to generalize. There were a lot of TOS fans who were glued to their TVs the night Encounter at Farpoint premiered. We stuck with the series for the entire run, gladly. Lots of us just enjoy Trek in general.

 

[T'Girl]

TNG's gives the impression that that crew is screwing around instead of doing their jobs.

Like the TNG episode where Picard nearly blows a major diplomatic meeting, because his is playing dime store detective on the holodeck, and then can't get out of his own fantasy.

And can anyone here explain why the very first time they could not get the holodeck's door open, Picard didn't order all the holodeck power door, replaced with completely unpowered manually opening door?

Or just a shower curtain?

")

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And can anyone here explain why the very first time they could not get the holodeck's door open, Picard didn't order all the holodeck power door, replaced with completely unpowered manually opening door?

Or just a shower curtain?

")

To be fair it wasn't geting the door open on his side that was the problem so much as getting the damned thing to show up since its hiden until you call for it.

Of course they still need some kind of emergency system in case that happens.

 

[sevenstars]

...Twilight Zone and The Fugitive don't get this kind of grief and they are both very much of their time...

Nice commentary. I was going to mention Twilight Zone, but there, you did it. I guess maybe the difference is, for those of us who care, you know, CARE, all of Trek is continuous, and just a little bit real. So it's harder to relate to one show strictly as a period piece.

Why are TOS fans so defensive? It wasn't a TNG fan that started this divisive shitfest of a thread.

I actually thought it was just for fun.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What I see here are a lot of people dismissing TOS based on things that were "of its time."

Well yeah, because no one is watching the show in 1966. There's certainly no reason for people new to the show to give it the benefit of the doubt on these things unless it delivers for them on basic levels - and that it continues to do so now and will continue to do so in the future is far from self-evident.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The big problem is that some of the flaws were impossible to escape notice.

That women weren't allowed to be starship captains was hard to ignore, particularly if you're a woman, unless you agreed with the concept.

There was definitely a glass ceiling.

Basically TOS was saying that Starfleet was male dominated and they decided that women couldn't be Starfleet captains (too emotional, irrational etc).

Even though 23rd century humans were supposedly more enlightened by then?

So along with the hairstyles, the space hippie episodes, you had to take the show with a grain of salt.

I like elements of both series, all of them actually, but when comparing TOS to a later series like TNG, TOS comes up lacking in certain areas-- it can only go so far.

 

[YARN]

What I see here are a lot of people dismissing TOS based on things that were "of its time."

Well yeah, because no one is watching the show in 1966. There's certainly no reason for people new to the show to give it the benefit of the doubt on these things unless it delivers for them on basic levels - and that it continues to do so now and will continue to do so in the future is far from self-evident.

Who is the better musician Fats Waller or Al Dexter? If we judge these artists under the criterion of what today's mass audience finds palatable, neither might get much love, or even recognition. If you don't know who these people were and why their contributions mattered in the historical context in which they offered them, you would be completely oblivious to their significance.

Everything eventually passes into the night, but TOS was a cultural phenomenon that had staying power for several decades. Kids these days aren't listening to big band music anymore, but I don't see how this gives me a warrant to say that the quality Glenn Miller is now somehow diminished.

Nu Star Trek is a reboot of what? TOS. The original. The classic. The one that made the impact. Where is your TNG now? It's in some alternate timeline that people producing contemporary Trek don't really care about. They're focused instead on classic characters from the original series. Moreover, people seem to have responded rather warmly to
the Nu Trek. The film made money. TOS is dead and yet TOS lives. TNG? Enjoy those remastered DVDs.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

What I see here are a lot of people dismissing TOS based on things that were "of its time."

Well yeah, because no one is watching the show in 1966. There's certainly no reason for people new to the show to give it the benefit of the doubt on these things unless it delivers for them on basic levels - and that it continues to do so now and will continue to do so in the future is far from self-evident.

Yeah I mean its not like TOS was the basis of a recent successful movie or anything....

Oh wait!

The big problem is that some of the flaws were impossible to escape notice.

That women weren't allowed to be starship captains was hard to ignore, particularly if you're a woman, unless you agreed with the concept.

Or you have a different interpretation of that line or also remember that Janet Lester was a nutcase.

Basically TOS was saying that Starfleet was male dominated and they decided that women couldn't be Starfleet captains (too emotional, irrational etc).

That or Janet couldn't get the job because she was fruit loops, and seeing as passing a psychological evaluation is a major part of getting a starship command I can see why they wouldn't want to give her specifically a ship.

Plus your kind of ignoring the female captain in TVH.

Not to mention the only reason the ship didn't have a female first officer was becuase Roddenberry wouldn't recast the role.

Even though 23rd century humans were supposedly more enlightened by then?

Your taking the word of a nutcase as gospel though. They never outright say women can't be starship captains they just use a line that could also mean that Kirk's career isn't really good for long term relationships as TWOK kind of points out.

I like elements of both series, all of them actually, but when comparing TOS to a later series like TNG, TOS comes up lacking in certain areas-- it can only go so far.

But, TOS also has the benefit of being more a more fun space adventure show and not being reliant on guest stars to do so which is a major point where TNG is lacking for me.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The big problem is that some of the flaws were impossible to escape notice.

That women weren't allowed to be starship captains was hard to ignore, particularly if you're a woman, unless you agreed with the concept.

There was definitely a glass ceiling

Basically TOS was saying that Starfleet was male dominated and they decided that women couldn't be Starfleet captains (too emotional, irrational etc).

That might be true if the episode that introduced the idea wasn't the last episode filmed and if the first pilot didn't have a woman as an XO. XOs are Captains in training.

Even though 23rd century humans were supposedly more enlightened by then?

So along with the hairstyles, the space hippie episodes, you had to take the show with a grain of salt.

All shows reflect the times they were made. TNG's hairstyles and ideas are straight out of the 80s and 90s. I cringe at them at time too.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Turnabout Intruder contradicts the role of women in Starfleet established in the The Menagerie (by way of the footage reused in it from the first pilot), and was filmed in the context of episodes being made that were routinely contradicting elements of the show established in previous episodes. Turnabout Intruder makes the whole crew seem like a bunch of nincompoops. It's a bad episode, hardly on equal footing with, say, The Menagerie.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What I see here are a lot of people dismissing TOS based on things that were "of its time."

Well yeah, because no one is watching the show in 1966. There's certainly no reason for people new to the show to give it the benefit of the doubt on these things unless it delivers for them on basic levels - and that it continues to do so now and will continue to do so in the future is far from self-evident.

Yeah I mean its not like TOS was the basis of a recent successful movie or anything....

They had to modernize it and throw a lot of the dated nonsense out to make it work, of course. We can be grateful for that.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Why are TOS fans so defensive? It wasn't a TNG fan that started this divisive shitfest of a thread.

I actually thought it was just for fun.

Nope.

 

[Kelso]

I like both shows a lot. TOS is my favorite, but it could have used quite a bit more Worf.

Also, I can pee farther than you can.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's true that Lester was completely batsh*t but I think that conversation was evidence of women being barred from being captain.

She says the world of Starfleet captains didn't admit women and it was unfair. And Kirk agrees with her that it was unfair, sort of acknowledging that sort of thing existed.

Plus, why would she switch bodies with Kirk after all those years, just so she could later take command of the ship?

They had to modernize it and throw a lot of the dated nonsense out to make it work, of course. We can be grateful for that.

Exactly. They had to do a bit of retconning and revisions . From the movies, TNG and afterwards they did a pretty good job.

Turnabout Intruder contradicts the role of women in Starfleet established in the The Menagerie

Also true. Either they're saying that XO is the farthest a woman could ever hope to reach in Starfleet, or it's a blatant contradiction.

Notice that beside that episode, you don't see women ranked any higher than lieutenant cmder or in XO roles (unless I'm mistaken).

You just had to suspend certain expectations with some things from TOS.

 

[TotesMagotes]

meh. Whenever I see an episode of TOS on TV, I'm bored and I change the channel. I watch TNG, I'm engaged. Nuff said. Course, were I older, I would have grown up with TOS, in the 60's or 70's, loved it, and been on the "TOS is better" side.

And an unbelievable future. There is no way in hell religion and capitalism are going bug off just because we meet aliens, and humans aren't going to become saints. Sorry but TOS's version of humanity is probably more likely.

Wait, there's still money in TOS? What about that line in "the voyage home"?
Whale keeper lady: "Don't tell me there's no money in the future"
Kirk: "There isn't."

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Nightdiamoind commented:

''Either they're saying that XO is the farthest a woman could ever hope to reach in Starfleet, or it's a blatant contradiction.''

I expect Kirk's telling the truth. Even Uhura in CATSPAW was denied the center seat command the one live-action time she was the highest ranking officer on ship. So they give it to DeSalle from SQUIRE FROM GOTHOS instead, who's suddenly fifth in command instead of Uhura...then he vanishes forever after CATSPAW is over and the top four oficers return aboard.

We know it's really so they wouldn't enrage 1960S Southern viewers, but it's still insulting.

 

[T'Girl]

Wait, there's still money in TOS? What about that line in "the voyage home"?
Whale keeper lady: "Don't tell me there's no money in the future"
Kirk: "There isn't."

What "Whale Keeper Lady" ask was if they still used money in the future. We heard references in later movies to buying and selling of boats and houses, McCoy had money in the bar scene in the previous movie. So Kirk's statement could have meant that they don't use currency.

Kirk certainly didn't possess enough twentieth century currency to pay for pizza and beer.

Some of the previous posts discussed sexism. Gillian invited Kirk to a meal, why did she expect him to pay?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well yeah, because no one is watching the show in 1966. There's certainly no reason for people new to the show to give it the benefit of the doubt on these things unless it delivers for them on basic levels - and that it continues to do so now and will continue to do so in the future is far from self-evident.

Yeah I mean its not like TOS was the basis of a recent successful movie or anything....

They had to modernize it and throw a lot of the dated nonsense out to make it work, of course. We can be grateful for that.

While still keeping it close to the spirit of the show. TNG I don't see that happening much, just becuase of all the changes that would probably need to be made, and thats if by the time the JJverse is finished there is any interest in doing TNG.