Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by JoeZhang, Jul 20, 2013.
Well, Superman is dating Wonder Woman nowadays in the comics...
These observations don't really apply to the depiction of Lois in the comics, especially during the John Byrne era and the years following. She was a supportive, compassionate, driven, and caring individual. She supported Superman/Clark as not only a caring and devoted spouse, but also as a professional partner.
The Lois in Lois and Clark was similar to the comics version in this sense. Even the Smallville version grew up over the course of the series to be a really likeable character.
The Lois you refer to is based on the films and not much else.
Manners. Look into them.
"Suoerbitch" was a nickname Lois got from the fandom during the 1995-2005 period I was talking about. The official DC message boards at the time were rife with complaints about the stories in question, and other message boards at sites like Newsarama were commenting on the backlash DC was getting over the way they were writing Lois. I didn't pull the name out of thin air; it was what fans had come to call her because of the way DC was portraying her. As to your assertion that I'm full of nonsense, care to tell creators like Ron Frenz (who drew some of the stories in question and didn't like the direction DC wanted), Gail Simone (who criticized the stories in interviews), and Kurt Busiek (who admitted on Comic Book Resources that DC had made Lois unsympathetic) that they're liars? Also, care to tell Les Daniels that he was lying about Lois being written as implausibly hostile in his DC retrospective books? (Oh, wait. He's dead. Guess you can't do that.)
"The most significant female character of the 20th century"? That's a major, major stretch. I wouldn't even call the male superheroes "the most significant creations" of the century. So spare me your fanboyism.
Lois' fling with Jeb during and post-"death of Superman" doesn't apply to the comics? It was going on IN the comics at the time. Letter columns were full of complaints about Jeb and how much they disliked his character, and how much they disliked the way he was being set up as Superman's rival. (And again, Ron Frenz, who was working on the books at thee time, confirmed this was going on when I met him a few years ago.) Lois' breakup with Clark in the comics after Jeb's death was also a point of contention with fans, especially when Lois told Clark "I need more from a man, more than you're able to give!" The only reason Lois & Clark got married at all was because WB forced DC to honor their original agreement to marry them of in tandem with the TV show. People at DC were voicing complaints about how WB was disrupting their storylines by doing so, and DC editorr Joey Cavalieri later admitted that if the writers had to do it over again, the marriage would never have happened.
Also, the marriage was not a "caring, devoted" one. It was turbulent. Stuart Immonen wrote a story where Lois lashed out at Clark over his Superman responsibilities (including fights with giant lobster robots) and stood him up when he tried to make it up to her "to teach you a lesson." (What lesson, don't do your job?) The whole Parasite-as-Lois story was built around the idea that Lois had those abusive tendencies, and again, fan response was such that they thought Lois had gone off the deep end that time, and DC used it to milk that story for all it was worth.
Then you had a Captain Marvel guest-shot issue where she starts the issue off being mad at him for saving her and ends it being mad at him for not saving her.
Then you had "Our Worlds at War," where Lois' father -- now allied with Luthor -- faked his death while Superman was trying to stop Imperiex from wiping out the Amazons, and Lois, under the pretense of a vacation with her mother, tried to leave him, leaving a "Dear John" message for him and writing journal entries about how much she hated him for not sacrificing the Amazons for her father. (She later explicitly states this in a subsequent issue featuring Dracula.)
Then there was the arrival of the Cir-El Supergirl, which had Lois ranting and raving that Clark was cheating on her with the female members of the JLA and demanding to know which one it was.
And then there was another blow-up between them when he and Perry White faked his firing from the Planet so he could covertly go after Luthor, and she took it as an insult because she wasn't in on it. (Never mind that she was previously blackmailed by Luthor into killing stories of his choosing lest he bankrupt the Planet, and told no one.)
And then, in the Chuck Austen run of Action Comics (not a good run, but that's another argument,) Martha calls Lois out for taking Clark for granted. In-universe, it was eventually admitted that Lois hadn't been good to Clark. Mind you, Lana Lang was likewise being written as unsavory (and Martha called her out, too), but even in the stories there was no pretense that Lois and Clark were a harmonious couple.
Also, the Lane family picking up the "mistreat Clark" slack? Pretty much everything post-Jeb right thru the New Krypton event, starting with Sam Lane hating Clark's guts and eventually escalating to Sam and Lucy siding with Luthor against Superman and killing the New Krypton colony.
Also? The writers responsible for those stories were also making it clear in interviews that they opposed the marriage and wanted the Love Triangle back. They weren't hiding their agenda, and in fact there were story pitches to pull a proto-"One More Day" to that end (including one by Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, among others). And again, if this was all movie-based as you claim, why would people like Gail Simone and Kurt Busiek be opposed to the way Lois was written? People who tried to fix the damage and arguably didn't succeed? And if this was all movie-based, why were comic book forums of the time so unhappy with the stories? Why did "Superbitch" become the go-to nickname for Lois? (No, I'm not the one who coined it.) Again, this didn't come out of thin air. People were unhappy with the direction DC insisted on, and it got worse the more DC kept it up.
The Lois I speak of IS the comic book version. Predominantly from the Man of Steel-Flashpoint era, yes. But I am absolutely speaking of the comics. And that's not even getting into the Golden Age comics (podcasters like Jon Wilson at Golden Age Superman have talked about this). So don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm only using a movie-based argument when I'm explicitly talking about the comics.
Can't say I've ever heard Lois called "superbitch". Not even on the DC Comics message boards in the late 90s and the early 00s.
"Bitch" has too often been a sexist code word used to demonize women who dare to show any assertiveness or independence. So an argument that uses that slur three times in a single paragraph is immediately suspect. And given how much ingrained sexism there is in comics fandom, I'm not surprised that there would've been a segment of the fanbase attacking Lois in that way. When Star Trek: Voyager came along, there was a lot of comparably ugly rhetoric about Captain Janeway.
So.... not a Lois Lane fan then. Got it.
Are you serious? It was all over the official DC site's boards, especially post-"Our Worlds at War" and during Steven Seagle's run. I even saved entire forum discussions (copy-pasted into Microsoft Word) where it was used frequently in protest of Lois' behavior. The only way nobody would have heard it was if you weren't lurking or posting on the boards. Outside of the furor over the recent Superman movies or the Abrams Trek relaunch, I can't recall a forum subject that got people so angry.
Then again, I've encountered Superman fans who try to deny those stories even exist, or try to whitewash them to make Lois look good, so I shouldn't be surprised that the controversy eventually got buried.
Voyager is my wife's favorite Trek precisely because of Janeway. The series fault aside, Janeway is a great character. She is a strong and tough, but compassionate leader who is not afraid of her own emotions.
Being married to a tough, independent woman myself I don't see much wrong with Lois portrayal in most of those stories (although I do admit that sometimes she did fall victim to poor writing). She is a hard-nosed reporter who is hungry for a story and when done well she is hungry for a story out of a sense of justice, not a glory-seeker. This is where many of the movies got her wrong, I think.
I think my favorite Lois Lane moment is in Superman: TAS's "A Little Piece of Home" by the late Hilary J. Bader. When Clark is exposed to a sliver of kryptonite Lois has, he feels faint and looks sickly, and before Lois leaves to pursue her story, she crisply, curtly instructs the waitress to bring him chicken soup and tea. Her manner is as tough and no-nonsense as ever, but she's instinctively taking care of Clark, showing compassion through her deeds if not through her words and manner. And it's just so matter-of-fact and automatic, a throwaway moment that says something profound about her. S:TAS's Lois was very protective of Clark, and there's a charming irony in that.
I was a member. Posted, but not that often in the Superman forums. Maybe I've forgotten the uproar.
Copy and pasted the the forum discussion and saved them? Seriously?
There are headlines everywhere tonight about William Shatner playing Alfred in the movie.
Because nothing says "British Gentleman's Gentleman" like William Shatner.
"WHY! ... Do we fall? Sothat We. Can. Learn-to ... PICK ... ourselves UP!"
No, just no.
"Bitch" is most often used to denote arrogance/hostility/etc. NOT desirable traits - in men or women. And that's how the attribute was used by the poster you attacked.
Also, your argument which consists of throwing a politically correct label/ad personam with nothing to support it is the one immediately suspect.
The Superman/Batman film we need AND deserve has finally arrived!
... Er, make that Superman/Badman, of course.
You call that an attack? You must be new to the internet...
Somewhat surprisingly, it seems that filming has commenced on this movie. But before you all get excited for shots of Affleck in costume, it's just of a real-life football match, which will double for a match within the film. Metropolis v Gotham teams perhaps?
Separate names with a comma.